Tania Prill is a graphic designer living and working in Zurich. She grew up in Hamburg and studied visual communication in Bremen and Zurich. From 2001 to 2018, she worked with the renowned studio Prill Vieceli Cremers. In 2018, she founded the Tania Prill studio. As a graphic designer, she has created artist book projects, and she is also the editor of Unter dem Radar, Underground- und Selbstpublikationen 1965–1975. In addition to her artwork, her activities include teaching. Tania Prill has been a professor of typography at the University of the Arts Bremen since 2010.
This interview was conducted in June 2018. Lea Sievertsen IGV met Tania Prill TP in Bremen, Germany at the University of the Arts Bremen.
IGV Is there a particular place in Zurich that inspires you? What is it precisely that makes this place special for you?
TP Zurich has the Albis hills, a chain of hills in the Canton of Zurich. At present, I go there almost every Sunday. From my flat, it takes me only 20 minutes to get there. After a taxing climb, I am surrounded by nature, and I can walk through it as long as I wish, with a wonderful view. Anyone who knows their way about up there can be almost alone, although it is a much-frequented pleasure spot. Descending, I reach the Sihl river and can jump into the water in the summer.
IGV You travel between Zurich and Bremen a good deal, and you grew up in Hamburg. Why did you choose Zurich as the place for your life to centre on?
TP I studied in Bremen and in Zurich, and after I completed my studies I stayed in Zurich, mostly because of love.
IGV Is Zurich a good place for graphic design?
TP There are interesting commissions here, a special consciousness for graphic design, and a lot of engagement with the content. I think that Switzerland is a very good place for graphic design, focused on the cultural area.
IGV What qualities come to mind when people talk about the “Swiss mentality”?
TP Punctuality, structure, commitment, precision. These are what I consider to be positive qualities. The qualities that I would describe as negative are a certain unfriendliness, and a level of social control that is very heightened, especially in public spaces.
IGV You had previously been to Switzerland as a student in the 1990s. Were there – and are there still – particular cultural values in Switzerland from which you felt you could learn something?
TP While I was studying, I learnt how to phrase things tactfully. My German directness got me into a lot of trouble. In Switzerland, I learned to express myself in a more restrained way. There was an upside and downside to this, but I do value this quality.
IGV Do you think this sense of restraint is also reflected in Swiss society?
TP Processes can be exceptionally protracted here. An extreme example of this is the introduction of votes for women. This did not happen until 1971. In the Canton of Appenzell Innerrhoden, it did not happen until 1991.
IGV Aside from the Swiss cultural influences, are there other cultural influences that have been significant to your professional development?
TP Yes. I have been living here for 25 years now, almost as long as I lived in Germany. I have German and Swiss citizenship. I feel German in Switzerland and Swiss in Germany. A mixture of the two cultures, and my constant movement between the two countries – always being on the move – has left its mark on me. If you were to ask me where I like to be, I would say: on the move. Being able to get to know both university systems was very important for my professional development. The free system in German Art universities was in contrast with the educational structures in Zurich. At the same time, there was significantly more freedom in Switzerland in terms of the results produced, which were more varied than the work of students in Bremen. There, the work produced tended to be quite homogenous at the time. Typographically, much of the work was strongly based on the Ulm School, for instance. This was because the professors had studied there.
Introducing the person
IGV What role does beauty play in your work?
TP A very good question. I never use that word when I’m talking about my work, or when I’m talking to students about design. Design is not like art or philosophy – in design, the expression “beautiful” has some rather negative connotations. “Beautiful” is often equated with “decorative”. I find it interesting to talk about the concept of beauty in aesthetics, and to find out what the criteria for its evaluation are.
IGV What is the most beautiful thing that you have ever encountered?
TP When I was a child living in Hamburg, there was a kingfisher in our garden. I used to watch it flying over our pond, looking like a natural disco ball. I still often remember this image today. My newborn babies were also beautiful, especially when they were asleep. (laughs)
IGV Are there specific themes or ideas that are especially fascinating to you at the moment?
TP I am currently occupied with the question of simultaneous perceivability of music. To what extent is it possible to hear different songs simultaneously? Jointly with Peter Tillessen, I am working on a book about his project "Whatever" which is inspired by Quodlibet. This was a popular trend in the baroque period, which involved the simultaneous playing of various musical pieces. And I have just discovered the American avant-garde filmmaker Barbara Rubin, who started working with film as the intern of Jonas Mekas and later became a close friend of him. She inspired a number of artists, including Andy Warhol and Velvet Underground, and her life story is as remarkable as it is tragic. I am currently working on a book about her for Spector Books, together with Franziska Bauer.
IGV You previously worked as an editor on “Under the Radar, Underground Zines and Self-Publications 1965–1975”, which meant that you were concerned with the theme and content as well as the design.
TP My way of working has changed over the years. Today, I tend to work on projects, often collaborating with different people and sometimes working as the editor, rather than the designer.
IGV As a child, what was your dream job?
TP I didn’t have one. I only knew that I didn’t want to be either a doctor or a ballet dancer. When I was young, my imagination had no limits, and I could have been anything. In my final years at the Gymnasium, I rented a place in a studio from a Hamburg artist. I used to go there to paint, draw, and to develop projects after school. The artist had studied design but realised after graduating that he wanted to be an artist and he had never worked as a designer. Talking to him made me realize that I didn't want to study art – but design.
IGV Are there other disciplines that play an important role for you? You already mentioned film and music.
TP At the moment: Art, literature, music, biology, philosophy, sport, linguistic sciences.
Working Life
IGV Can you describe your typical day?
TP My daily routine is different depending on whether I am in Bremen or Zurich. I am an early riser. I always start my day with coffee. In Bremen, I go for a jog along the Weser and then cycle to the University. I start work there around 8.30. My days are shaped by teaching and university meetings. I often meet colleagues in the evenings. We eat together and exchange news. My travelling allows me to be present on site and take my time. In Zurich, I also start my day with coffee. Then, I read the news, wake my children up and take them to school. At the moment, I don’t have a studio, as the place where I used to work – the former studio of Hans-Rudolf Lutz – is being renovated. So I often work in the reading rooms of Zurich libraries. I like this nomadic lifestyle and the working atmosphere there. Occasionally, I meet up with friends, or with people who I work with on projects.
IGV Are there certain rituals that you might associate with your design process?
TP There are plenty of funny moments in the design process, and plenty of stressful moments. I generally get by thanks to a certain stubbornness. I recently saw a beautiful example of failure in a film about the Black Mountain School. It showed Buckminster Fuller trying to erect his first dome, in the grounds of the Black Mountain School. With the assistance of colleagues and students, the structure was set up, but it instantly collapsed. The public was shocked, but Buckminster Fuller beamed. Asked about it later, he commented that the failure had given him new ideas and helped him to further refine his work.
IGV What processes do you go through in your idea-finding phase?
TP I try to go beyond the material that I already have – where are the gaps, and what might be added? Sometimes I show the material to other people who have nothing to do with the subject matter, trying to incorporate their view of the project. In the beginning, I collect everything and include all the thoughts – including the strange ones that initially appeared unsuitable and which I kept to myself to start with. Thus, I keep some areas open and keep my own counsel in others.
IGV What effect do your theoretical interests have on the research process? Do you read a lot?
TP Yes. I spend a lot of time in archives and libraries, or with my own bookshelf.
IGV Do you get your feedback from creative people in your own circle or do you have other sources?
TP Often, I ask precisely those people who are not engaged in any creative activity and who come from a whole different area, because they can give me an entirely new view of my work. It is important to discuss things with your clients, or with the team. People who come to me with assignments are part of a temporary team.
IGV Does compromise play an important part in this?
TP No, I don’t believe that it does. As I have already mentioned, teamwork is in the foreground and is especially important. But I don’t see this as compromise. Compromise is generally not a good thing, as it often results in the combining of two diametrically opposed ideas, leading to a poor result.
IGV Which do you feel is more important: the process or the product?
TP The process needs to be fun because you have to enjoy doing what you’re doing. Of course, in our field, it is ultimately the product that counts: no one is interested in how long I worked on a project, or how much pleasure it gave me. So the product is definitely in the foreground. The process is equally important, but it doesn’t concern outsiders. In teaching, the process is often more important than the end result.
IGV Is being a graphic designer a dream job?
TP I think that, for many people, it is a dream job, but it constantly poses fresh challenges. My profession changes constantly, requiring me to be open and flexible.
IGV Why do you think clients choose you as a designer – or you and your colleagues collectively as a studio? What aspects do you see as central to your/you and your colleagues’ expertise?
TP In the laudatory speech for the Jan-Tschichold Prize, Michael Guggenheimer, writing about us, said that we do not insist on imposing our own style. Instead, we engage with the subject matter and the specific project in order to find a suitable visual implementation. The ultimate result may be very different in each case. This may be one reason why clients want to work with us.
IGV So the way you approach things – and, above all, how you work with the clients – plays a major role.
TP Yes, you might put it like that.
IGV In your opinion, what are the qualities that characterize a good graphic designer?
TP That brings me back once again to the theme of failure: you have to allow for mistakes, and you mustn’t throw in the towel too quickly. Additionally, graphic designers need plenty of sensitivity. They must be able to listen and be patient. A very particular kind of communication is required. Also, analytical capacity and intelligence don’t hurt.
IGV Are there typical conflicts that arise, with clients, for instance? How do you tackle these conflicts?
TP I believe that almost all conflicts boil down to inadequate or insufficient communication, or to the modes of communication being too complicated. There are things that should not be communicated by email. Sometimes a phone call or a direct discussion is the better choice.
Attitude
IGV Who do you create designs for? For everyone, or for the connoisseurs?
TP Both. It depends on the context or the project.
IGV What movements or designers have had a particular influence on you?
TP Poststructuralism influenced me. So did Germany’s AKW movement of the 1980s. Also, the Swiss graphic designer Hans Rudolf Lutz, because he had an unconventional attitude. The Emigre Fonts – at the time, we were among the first to work using computers at university. There are many graphic artists and studios that have fascinated me over the years, but today it tends to be individual pieces of work.
IGV Swiss graphic design is highly regarded and is known for its precision and object simplicity. Can you describe the idea or attitude behind this form of design?
TP I would say that simplicity is in the past now. It does not define present-day Swiss graphic design as much as it once did. I would say that it is more characterized by precise handling of typography, which is apparent even during training. At the same time, I am critical of the concept of “Swiss graphic design”. Many of the designers who are described as typical contemporary Swiss designers have studied, taught, and lived abroad. They have absorbed plenty of different influences that cannot be simply categorized as “Swiss graphic design” and brought them back to Switzerland.
IGV Is this something that you identify with as a graphic designer? For instance, in the book “Unter dem Radar, Underground- und Selbstpublikationen 1965 – 1975” Jan-Frederik Bandel writes about the underground self-publishing culture, suggesting an interest in a kind of “anti-scene”.
TP I find the way the past relates to today exciting. When I saw the Jan-Frederik Bandel collection “Archive of Independent Publishing”, which provided the basis for our book and exhibition project, I looked for connections with the scene of today. We wanted to display an unprecedented spectrum of the BRD’s underground publications and self-publications, including the international context in which they were created. The Independent Publishing scene is currently experiencing a boom. These days, every art university has a risograph, and there is a tremendous amount of publishing going on everywhere. Admittedly, I think a great deal of it is uninteresting. Since we are standing on the shoulders of authors, publishers, and printers from the 1960s and the 1970s, it is worth connecting and creating a dialogue between the perspectives and actions of the scene as it was then and the scene as it is today. This is what “Under the Radar” tries to do. The “Archive of Independent Publishing” is now housed at the HfK Bremen, and we wanted to make it available for research. Currently, I am working in a team on the further development of the exhibition which will take place at the Kunsthalle Bern in December 2019. With the project–wir publizieren–"we are concerned with the question of how to identify increased interest in printed matter in small editions or obscure networks, and with how themes, approaches, aesthetics, and attitudes have changed in independent publishing since the 1960s (and why)." (http://www.wir-publizieren.ch)
IGV Are there wider themes that recur through your work? If so, how do they leave their mark on your work?
TP I like to collect things. Years ago, when I was travelling in Iran, I noticed the pictures on the banknotes. I was particularly interested in the fact that these are representations of power – mini-posters – that we distribute in their millions without questioning the iconography of the notes. This gave me the idea for our book “MONEY” which I designed and edited together with Sebastian Cremers and Alberto Vieceli. The Barbara Rubin project interested me because it was a chance to make her life and work better known. In the male-dominated 1960s/1970s American art scene, her work – which I find very meaningful – sank without a trace.
IGV Are there specific themes that unite a large proportion of Swiss designers?
TP A certain passion for collecting.
IGV What, in your opinion, is the worst thing about contemporary graphic design?
TP The failure to ensure that graphic design is appropriately remunerated. After all, most designers have completed studies at Art University. People should place a higher value on their work. At the university, I get lots of enquiries from non-profit organizations that don’t have a budget for graphic design. On top of this, I don’t understand why some agencies and designers don’t pay their interns a monthly salary.
IGV Aren’t there any sayings that designers use that you find especially sanctimonious?
TP “Don’t cry –work.”
IGV Is graphic design important?
TP Yes! And especially in our society today. More and more areas call for the attention of graphic designers and for their solutions. I recently visited a child doctor’s practice with my 6-years old son. In his treatment happened a serious mistake in regarding the medication. The medicament was mixed up with another wrong one, that had nearly the same package design. This is an example of a problem that affects many European countries, which I see as a design problem that could be solved by design interventions. Our way of working will keep on changing, in the direction of working in transdisciplinary teams and integration into research projects where the focus will be on developing a common language. I believe that graphic design is an area that will in future encounter extreme and major challenges.
IGV Does design have the power to change society?
TP I think that graphic design is always dependent on society in its development and that in many respects this works both ways. I wouldn’t go so far as to say that design can change society on its own, but it can certainly initiate processes.
IGV Imagine that you were the dictator of the world of graphic design. What policies would you implement first?
TP More women teaching in Art universities, more women Art university rectors, more women designers!
IGV One final question. To quote the band R.E.M.: Have you ever lost your religion?
Mobius Studio was founded in 2010 by Hala Al-Ani, Hadeyeh Badri, and Riem Hassan. The three met during their undergraduate studies at the American University of Sharjah and decided to start the studio to overcome their existential blues. Mobius is a mathematical term meaning object that connects two worlds, it reflects a desire to twist together two opposing worlds, such as commercial and experimental work, or seriousness and levity.
This interview was conducted in 2018 December through email. Saki Ho IGVmet Hala Al-Ani HAin Sharjah, UAE during FIKRA Graphic Design Biennial, the conversation began and interview follows.
Introducing the cultural context
IGV What is an inspiring place for you in UAE/Dubai? What makes this place special to you?
HA One of the many places that inspire us is Tashkeel studio. This place has maintained us and fed us (literally, lunch everyday) since we started the studio in 2010. Our friend Marwan Shakarchi jokes about it “embracing the misfits”, but there is much truth to that. The building that houses Tashkeel went through a growth of its own: it was a grocery store, a college, and then, for years, a space dedicated to nurturing artists. We’ve grown together along with the space, breaking walls and expanding works for both. Tashkeel’s annual programmes of training, residencies, workshops, talks, and exhibitions have given us access to people, knowledge, and life-long friendships. The idea that a space can be humble but impactful is inspiring to us.
IGV Let me enlarge the geographic scale. What about UAE in general? Why do you like to live here? Is it a good place for graphic design?
HA We think it is a good place for designers to thrive because of the many opportunities available to us. In general, there seem to be opportunities to exhibit and showcase work. Cultural institutions are more likely to invest in proposals from designers. Of course, we face the same difficulties a designer would encounter anywhere in the world. Making a living (one that is sustainable and steady) out of your work as a designer is challenging. Hala and Hadeyeh grew up in the UAE. Riem moved to the UAE for university.
IGV My impressions of Dubai were: “rich”, “new architecture”, “tourism” and “high-end designs”. Cliché or truth? Do these influence your design practice too?
HA Every city has its peculiarities, ironies, and distinct paradoxes. Dubai is no different. These peculiar qualities are what give designers/thinkers plenty of venues for inquiry. There is always the tendency for people who have never lived here to generalize and focus on the shiny, the glitz, the glamour and the new. Outsiders’ projections focus on a certain group of people that are, for the same reasons, highlighted online. What about the rich demographics? The many, many encounters that are possible because of multicultural spaces? The matriarchs that run families? The variety of food? There’s much to talk about! I guess what we are trying to do is to direct the question back at the reader. What is it that you seek to know about the UAE?
IGV What characteristics do you think of when speaking of UAE mentality? What are the problems that UAE society is struggling with?
HA Mentality is not something that is homogenous. There’s a tendency to homogenize subjects that contain a wide spectrum when it comes to region. We want to ask the readers to think about who lives in the UAE. We have many nationalities: different experiences, and hence, different mentalities and an array of problems and struggles. All of which make this a unique place. We are aware that this doesn’t answer the question; the question would need to be more specific.
IGV Which of your culture’s values could I learn something from?
HA If we had to pick one thing that we would want you to experience, it would be the holy month of Ramadan. Regardless of your religion or belief, this month is special for everyone living in the UAE because of its spirit. We fast from dawn till dusk. Once it is time to break our fast, friends and family gather to eat. As corny as this sounds (we do love corn; and cheese), ties are strengthened or rekindled. The social life of the city changes for a whole month: nights are extended and you are able to go out and visit people for longer periods of time and also dedicate time for prayer. The night stretches out. And in the morning, there is time to pause for reflection. Our stomachs are empty, but that allows us to think of our blessings. Our hearts are full (insert cheese). We would definitely want you to experience the call for prayer. It is what we miss the most when we travel.
IGV What cultural influences – besides UAE – have been of significance to your career?
HA We are a multicultural trio! Our heritage is Egyptian, Iraqi, Emirati, and Iranian. We are constantly trying to learn more about our heritage and find literature that does not correspond to the Western canon. That has been a challenge, and will likely be a life-long pursuit.
IGV Mobius is based in Dubai, but the founders of Mobius come from different walks of life in terms of background and cultures. Do you see UAE is a place which can embrace all these diversities? Is this character applicable to Mobius too?
HA We think it is clear from our answers to the questions above that the UAE is a place where different people come together. The three of us have travelled a lot over the years and we all believe the UAE is one of the most multicultural places we’ve visited. It is part of the UAE’s fabric. Having said that, the three of us feel like we thrive in spaces that are communal. We learn so much from people (far more than we do from books). We thrive in places that have a sense of camaraderie and try to avoid places that promote individualism. We agree 100% on this. This is a Eurocentric thing, and there is a reason for us growing up with English being the main focus in our classrooms. From the onset, we’ve been exposed to a Western education. Back then (and now still), speaking good English is a sign of prestige. But we feel that we are at a loss. We wish we could go back and focus more on our mother tongue. It is a shame. Literally, we feel embarrassed that it is so difficult for us to conduct a full conversation in Arabic. In university, we didn’t have access to Arabic typography. Can you imagine? We hold ourselves accountable. We realize that we have to start somewhere and that this needs to change. We are thinking of ways to change this within our practice, the books we read, the references we use, the people we cite, and what we include in the classroom.
Introducing the person
IGV Does beauty play an important role in your work? What is the most beautiful thing you’ve ever seen?
HA Beauty is subjective. We don’t think about it when making. The work is dictated by other factors: time, process, and intent.
IGV How do you stay alert to the little miracles of everyday life?
HA We’d love to give a super philosophical answer to make ourselves sparkle, but we have to be honest here. Some days we are more in tune and more spiritual. Other days we just want to come back home and watch a rom-com and switch off.
IGV What themes or ideas do you find particularly interesting/ fascinating at the moment?
HA One thing we have in common is the fascination with how life cycles cause change.
IGV What do you expect from life? What does life in the UAE expect from you?
HA More than anything, we just want to be good people. We have hopes and dreams, but ultimately it all comes down to humanity and being kind.
IGV As a child, what was your dream career? or: What was the most significant experience of your youth, and did it influence your choice of profession?
HA We all probably wanted to be cashiers at the cash desk because we thought we could keep all that cash. (laughs)
IGV Where were you educated as a graphic designer?
HA In school, we did our undergrad at the American University of Sharjah.
IGV Are there other artistic or scientific disciplines that are important to you?
HA Music, food, literature. The list goes on.
Working life
IGV Could you describe your typical working day routine?
HA Coffee. More coffee. Work. Lunch. Work. Snack. Coffee. Work. In that order.
IGV What do you do on a holiday?
HA Try not to think of work. We have a hard time relaxing. It’s a dilemma.
IGV Dream job: graphic designer?
HA Some days, we just want to work at Baskin Robbins and make waffle cones.
IGV Why do clients pick you out as a designer? What are the core aspects of your design expertise?
HA We think the clients that pick us come to us because they know we are able to be playful.
IGV In your eyes, what are the qualities of a good graphic designer?
HA First and foremost, don’t be an asshole. That’s the general rule. Hahah. But in all seriousness, a good designer allows room for part of the process to be unknown. A little bit of surprise; a little bit of magic. Of course, that is rare when you have deadlines to meet and rent to pay. But, in an ideal world: magic!
IGV Are there any rituals associated with your design processes?
HA Food and coffee are our best friends. We also play the same song a million times.
IGV How does your idea-finding process work? or: How do you decide whether an idea is good?
HA We have been blessed with telepathy amongst each other. We rarely need to communicate our thoughts. We joke about being witches. A lot of our process is planned, but also, a lot of our decision making is intuitive.
IGV Are hierarchies important in your work and collaboration as a designer? What are these hierarchies?
HA We don’t believe in hierarchies in Mobius. We work together. Forever. (laughs)
IGV Are compromises an integral component of graphic design?
HA We always have to make compromises. There are always external factors at play: lack of time, lack of sleep, lack of energy, heartbreak, deadlines, money, etc. It is very rare to have everything our way.
IGV A compromise is always the result of a struggle. What are the typical conflicts that you have to fight out with clients? And how do you handle such a conflict? or: What is the biggest compromise that you have had to accept?
HA The struggles come when a client miscommunicates what they want. OR when a client doesn’t know what they want. Our most common dilemma is when clients say they want something “modern” but they actually mean they want something “traditional”. Another challenge we face is when clients make big changes but are unwilling to shift the deadline: we feel our labour goes unappreciated.
IGV What are the most enthusiasm-filled and most annoying moments in the process?
HA The beginning is always hard. Sometimes we work for days but end up with unsatisfactory results. It happens. There is no other way around it. You work until something comes up.
IGV Who do you get your feedback from?
HA We are lucky to be situated in a space where likeminded people are around us all the time (Tashkeel). We can literally ask our studio neighbours for their opinion.
IGV Design process or product: what is more important to you?
HA Process, always.
IGV What about “stealing” from other designers?
HA That’s a different story entirely. The thing is, everything has been done before. So, if you rule out this unattainable (and fake) idea of originality, we think people have different ideas about what is considered “inspired” vs. what is in fact “stolen”. It all comes down to integrity; that is something you cannot teach someone. You either have it or you don’t. As a designer, you should be able to make and create. There is an abundance, and absolutely no need to steal someone else’s work.
IGV Can you make a lot of money from graphic design in the UAE?
HA Like anywhere else, making a steady living from creative work is hard. We have good months and bad months.
Attitude
IGV Who do you design for? For connoisseurs, or for everyone? or: Do I need to understand design in order to feel the impact?
HA Everyone.
IGV In your eyes, what are the most important contemporary and historic movements in graphic design? or: What movement/designer has had the greatest influence on you?
HA Inspiration comes in bursts. It could be an excerpt or an exhibition or a scene from a series.
IGV How would you describe your individual graphic design attitude or style?
HA Dawood Hussain meets Tarek Al Ghoussein?
IGV Do you follow any meta-themes in your work? How and where do these concepts leave traces in your work?
HA We try to engage in processes that force us to have very little control.
IGV Is there a specific UAE approach in graphic design?
HA As with anywhere else, commercial projects look clinical.
IGV Could you name meta-themes that most UAE graphic designers share?
HA No, we would like to think that different designers have different pursuits.
IGV Do any of the following notions play a role in graphic design in UAE: craftsmanship, humbleness, identity, individuality, collectiveness?
HA We would say that identity plays a dominant role in many people’s work.
IGV Big question: Is graphic design important? Why?
HA If you couldn’t read the signs on the road clearly, would that be a problem? (This is the go to response that most graphic designers have up their sleeves, hahaha).
IGV Another big one: Can graphic design change society?
HA Graphic design can play a role.
IGV Half serious question: If you were the dictator of the world of graphic design, what measures would you implement?
Turbo is an independent design studio/space based in Amman, Jordan. Graphic designers Saeed Abu-Jaber and Mothanna Hussein co-founded Turbo in 2015, and are the sole team behind its creations.They set up Turbo for two reasons, firstly to push boundaries in design or to offer something different, and secondly because they fell in love with a space that used to be abandoned but could make a difference after renovation. Turbo is a space that combines work and play.
This interview was conducted in 2019 by email. Saki Ho IGVmet Turbo TBin Sharjah, UAE during FIKRA Graphic Design Biennial, and the conversation began. The interview follows.
Introducing the cultural context
IGV What it an inspiring place for you in Jordan? What makes this place special to you? Let me also enlarge the geographic scale. What about Amman in general? Why do you like to live here? Is a good place for graphic design?
TB We both grew up here in Amman, so it is home to us in a sense. Aside from that though, we feel that Amman has a nice slow-ish pace to it which is both a blessing and a curse depending on the situation. It is a good place for graphic design because the scene is still young, so there is no specific or expected visual language that is standard. But sometimes, living in a bigger busier city like New York or London, where one would be exposed to new, well thought-out design on a daily basis, is also quite beneficial to getting you fueled to produce and make more. In other words, strong competition is good.
IGV My impressions of Amman were “liberal”, “westernized”, “heritage” and “one of the hub of middle-east”. Cliché or truth? Are these or any Amman characters influences on your design practice too?
TB These descriptions are quite true, but as with any such descriptions, they are all relative. We will not go so far as to say that these impressions play a major part in our design practice, although they probably do in a subconscious manner.
IGV What characteristics do you think of when speaking of Amman mentality? What are the problems, that Amman society is struggling with?
TB The current geopolitical situation and economy, as you probably know, are not at their best. Being surrounded by warzones and instability does seep through to the general public and result in a general gloom over people’s ambitions and drive.Where it comes to the specifics of design, we think there is a kind of slight identity crisis when it comes to culture, seeing as Jordan is a fairly young country. This, although it is a positive in the sense of not having a specific visual heritage to be locked into, also leads to seeing a lot of work that we would call ’’Pinterest-y’’, and thus lacks a certain touch of originality, but that may be down to the general effect of the internet.
IGV Besides Amman, what cultural influences were important in your career?
TB Our own pop-art from the region.
IGV How about Amman’s pride?
TB Every city has its own pride, and so we are not sure if there is a specific pride that is specifically Ammani. We are not sure we understand the question.
Introducing the person
IGV Does beauty play an important role in your work? What is the most beautiful thing you’ve ever seen?
TB The aim is first and foremost to communicate. Beauty is the cherry on top.
IGV How do you stay alert to the little miracles of everyday life?
TB We think it really depends on the mood you are in when you wake up that day, as with any of us, but to get to a point where we can pick up on such miracles every day would require a lot of mental training. That said, we think not being glued to the screen working would definitely increase the chances of that happening.
IGV What themes or ideas do you find particularly interesting/ fascinating at the moment?
TB (Saeed) I have been very interested lately in getting into dynamic/moving typographic posters/artwork. TB (Mothanna) Everything that is new and beautiful.
IGV What do you expect from life? What does life in Amman expect from you?
TB Expectation is the root of all heartache.
IGV As a child, what was your dream career? or: What was the most significant experience of your youth, and did it influence your choice of profession?
TB (Saeed) Car Designer. TB (Mothanna) I was generally interested in matters of sight and sound.
IGV Why did you become a designer?
TB (Saeed) I was fascinated by the idea of a logo, a small shape or symbol representing a whole. TB (Mothanna) Again, a general interest in things of a visual nature
IGV Where were you educated as a graphic designer?
TB (Saeed) I never actually studied graphic design; I hold a Master’s degree in Cybernetic Engineering, But I did complete a short course at the SAE institute on the Adobe suite programmes. TB (Mothanna) Faculty of Fine Arts at Al Yarmouk University in Jordan.
IGV Are there other artistic or scientific disciplines that are important to you?Music and film, as well as a general fascination with outer space.
Working life
IGV Could you describe your typical routine on a working day?
TB Coffee. Design. Lunch. Coffee. Design. Home.
IGV What do you do on a holiday?
TB Travel. The location would dictate the activities that follow.
IGV Dream job: graphic designer?
TB (Saeed) A rich graphic designer. TB (Mothanna) Washing dishes in a restaurant at night.
IGV Why do clients pick you out as a designer? What are the core aspects of your design expertise?
TB The design scene in Amman is small and smaller design studios are scarce, so that is one reason. With that said, at Turbo we try to constantly push beyond the general expectations of our clients and produce something that is both visually new and honest.
IGV In your eyes, what are the qualities of a good graphic designer?
TB Honesty and curiosity.
IGV Are there any rituals associated with your design processes?
TB Not specifically.
IGV How does your idea-finding process work? or: How do you decide whether an idea is good?
TB Trust and experience.
IGV Are compromises an integral component of graphic design?
TB Yes. Design’s main goal is to solve problems.
IGV A compromise is always a result of a struggle. What are the typical conflicts that you have to fight with clients? And how do you handle such a conflict? or: What was the biggest compromise that you have had to accept?
TB Too many chefs in the kitchen.
IGV What are the most enthusiasm-filled and most annoying moments in the process?
TB Enthusiastic: While working. Annoying: When the client and ourselves are not on the same wavelength.
IGV Who do you get your feedback from?
TB Ourselves initially. Afterwards, people who are outside the field of design.
IGV Design process or product: what is more important to you?
TB Both.
IGV What about “stealing” from other designers?
TB It’s not easy not to get influenced by things that are seen or experienced in general, but one has to have enough knowledge and respect when getting “influenced”.
IGV Can you make a lot of money from graphic design in Amman?
TB It wont buy you a Ferrari, but it will pay your rent (depending on where you live).
Attitude
IGV Who do you design for? For connoisseurs, or for everyone? or: Do I need to understand design, in order to feel the impact?
TB Everyone.
IGV In your eyes, what are the most important contemporary and historic movements in graphic design? or: What movement/designer has had the greatest influence on you?
TB Many. Minimalism, Swiss Design, Pop-art, and everything in between.
IGV How would you describe your individual graphic design attitude or style?
TB We would leave this answer to the public.
IGV Is there a specific Amman approach in graphic design?
TB No.
IGV Could you name meta-themes that most Amman graphic designers share?
TB Other than general Arabic calligraphy, not really.
IGV Do any of the following notions play a role in graphic design in Amman: craftsmanship, humbleness, identity, individuality, collectiveness?
TB This question is too big to answer here.
IGV What is the worst thing about contemporary Amman graphic design?
TB 1.Compliance 2.Identity Crisis
IGV What is the most hypocritical thing that graphic designers say? Why?
TB Overselling concepts with empty words.
IGV Big question: Is graphic design important? Why?
TB Yes, because subconsciously we all are in contact with design in general, graphic design included.
IGV Another big one: Can graphic design change society?
TB Yes, in certain mediums.
IGV Half-serious question: If you were the dictator of the world of graphic design, what measures would you implement?
TB Delete Arial from existence.
IGV Have you ever lost your religion/beliefs? or: Which illusion do you hold onto at all costs?
Prof. Jingren Lu is a book designer and illustrator. During the 1990s, he studied under Prof. Sugiura Kohei (杉浦康平) in Japan. In 1998 he established the Jingren Art Design Studio. He was senior art editor of the China Youth Publishing House. He is now a professor of the Academy of Arts and Design of Tsinghua University and a member of Alliance Graphique Internationale (AGI). Prof. Lu has received many book design awards at home and overseas, including the World's Most Beautiful Book award (Leipzig, Germany), the Golden Award for National Book Binding Art Exhibition and National Publication Exhibition, hosted by the Chinese Government, and the award for Beauty of Books in China. Xiaomage is also one of his students.
The interview took place in March 2016. Ingo Offermanns IOmet Prof. Lu JLin Beijing.
IO Prof. Jingren Lu, given your experiences in China, Japan and in Europe, we are very interested in your view on the differences between Chinese, Asian and Western culture. Could you share your thoughts with us?
JL Please don’t regard me as a senior and a scholar. I am still desperate for knowledge and experiences, even though I am well-aged and have been working for a long time. To me, age and knowledge do not share a direct relationship. In China, our design history, especially contemporary design, is still under development, and rather young compared to the western world, China was blank and stopped developing during the Cultural Revolution (from the 50s to the 70s), and therefore for people in my generation our learning channels and sources were usually from the West. Maybe it is not appropriate to make this example, but I feel like the period of the Cultural Revolution in China was similar to the Nazi period in Germany. At this time, all traditional Chinese culture and all foreign cultures were banned. Not limited to art, the Cultural Revolution had a huge impact on everyone. Everything was devastating, painful, and void. After this incident, we felt empty and aimless, and we were therefore desperate to open up new paths. Therefore, if we were given any chances to reach information or books from the outside world, we would copy them by hand and memorize them. Everything from the West was fascinating and fresh. We were envious and eager to be in touch with them, especially as travel was hard in the past.
Long before the Cultural Revolution, China was already influenced by the West. I still remember the first time I saw Bauhaus furniture in a book or at home in the 40s. In the 50s, we were heavily influenced by Soviet Union styles such as Constructivism and Realism. This was eminently obvious in Shanghai in the 30s and 40s. Even now that the Cultural Revolution is over, I still find Western culture appealing. For a long time, I had an ambition to study overseas. After the Cultural Revolution, my brothers all went abroad. That was also the reason why I started to learn English. Soon after, there was an opportunity for an exchange with the publishing industry in Japan, I enrolled and began my Japanese studies. In Japan, I met my great and respected teacher for life – Prof. Sugiura Kohei, who took care of me so much and even offered me a scholarship to stay in Japan. Sugiura has an architecture background, and he thinks very logically. In the 70s, he was invited by the Institute of Design at Ulm (1964-67) to lecture as a guest professor, which led him to realize the differences in thinking between the East and West. In Europe, values are based on judgement of right or wrong, but in the East there are often grey zones remaining in between.
For Sugiura, right or wrong is only a brief track of thought. In Japanese culture, there is always ambiguity and chaos in everything. Of Eastern and Western culture, neither is ever superior to the other. They are two streams of thinking. Sugiura keeps asking himself: how would the logical architecture school of thought function in the Eastern mindset? So he started researching Taoism and even went to India for his studies. He realized that the relationship between “inhale” and “exhale” in vital breathing is actually similar in concept to how cultures and methodologies relate to each other. Neither Eastern nor Western culture represents absolute truth. They correlate to each other. The most important thing is that before learning a different culture we should have a thorough understanding of our own culture, I felt really embarrassed one time when Prof. Sugiura came to me, knocked on my head and said “You always said Japanese culture is good, but how do you look at Chinese culture? Have you learned enough? Even Japanese Kanji is from China!” From then on, I started to understand myself all over again. I began my search through past traditions and customs, the basics of Chinese culture. Eventually, I absorbed a lot of Eastern and Chinese cultures through the book design process. Neither is better or worse. Every culture is unique, and presents itself best in its own way. As a designer who comes from and is based in China, my audiences are Chinese. My mission is to design for them, hence I need to have a deep understanding of the local culture. This also applies to my teaching principles. I don’t want my students’ work to be 100% influenced by the West without having their own cultural elements.
IO Thanks for sharing these stories and your view on cultural differences. I think the essence of cultural exchange is to analyse what is good and bad, to be able to tell differences and to learn from them. In your eyes, what are the differences among European cultures? You have been in touch with Germany, Switzerland and Holland too, is there anything we can learn from the Chinese?
JL I have designer friends from Germany, Switzerland, and Holland. They share a lot of similarities. All of them use Latin alphabets. To go into further details, Germans tend to strictly obey rules, the Swiss are relatively flexible, and the Dutch are freestyle. People from the East might not see these differences, because we are lacking in sharp, radical, and logical analysis compared to the West. We focus on sensuality, on feeling and looking at things with an empirical approach. These are some of the merits of our culture because the senses apply widely and are flexible in nature, but the downside is a lack of science and accuracy. East Asian culture – Chinese, Japanese and Korean – relates to Taoism. Of these cultures, Chinese culture is rather approximate and comforting, whereas Japanese culture embraces Zen and Wabi-sabi. We can illustrate these differences with example of movable letterpress and woodblock printing. Although movable type was invented in China, Johannes Gutenberg introduced sophisticated rules on typography. By contrast, the Chinese also pay attention to grids and forms, but we do printing and engraving in an intuitive way. The East pursues logic in contingency, whilst the West pursues a soft touch within logic. Both have their own strength and beauty.
IO You mentioned the differences between Japanese and Chinese culture. Does China have anything similar to Wabi-sabi / Mono-no Aware in Japan?
JL Wabi-sabi is about emptiness or absence of self-nature. It is founded in Buddhism and Taoism. In the past, the Chinese also shared the same concept: living in nature, sensing nature and coming to realize the meaning of life between emptiness and the material world. Modern China is getting more and more realistic, aiming for a stylish and luxurious life style and tending not to connect with nature and the down to earth attitude we used to have. The Wabi-sabi concept is fading out. Wabi-sabi treasures and keeps everything in its original form, preserving nature and appreciating the beauty in imperfectness, yet today we seek artificiality and exaggeration, with overdesign and excessive design everywhere. In my opinion, some contemporary design in China is lagging behind the old times.
IO What example would you give of Wabi-sabi in modern Japan?
JL MUJI would be a good example. The brand spirit is related to Zen, pursuing emptiness, imagination and infinity, plus a subtle attitude with no over-design. This coheres with the nature of Wabi-sabi.
IO You mentioned that modern design was China is losing the taste of Zen and Wabi-sabi, so how would you describe the graphic design industry today?
JL Clients today are very practical and realistic. Publishers want maximum delivery at the fastest possible rate, and designers want to complete their designs as soon as they can. This phenomenon is dangerous because we have skipped “Zen practice” – thorough research, careful analysis and detailed editing between the stages of the design process, eventually everything becomes thin and rough, and lacks calm and quiet thinking.
IO How do you stay alert to the little miracles / beauties of everyday life?
JL Working is one way. I have a lot of interests. I love sports, music, and travel, and seeing many things. These things are synonymous with staying alert and sensitive. I live a “playful” life, I learn and feel by working and submerging myself in hobbies, which contain many emotions and ideas you can put into your design. This attitude is also a teaching from Prof. Sugiura. And of course you need to work seriously as well (laughs). Today, we are living in a high-speed material world, and everything is about screens and the internet. We satisfy all needs through the internet, which wipe out touches and senses from our daily lives.
IO What is the most beautiful thing you’ve ever seen?
JL The most beautiful and moving things in my life are the good things and the good people I have met during my down time. Around 40 years ago (during the Cultural Revolution, when all universities were closed) I was in Heilongjiang working as a farm worker in a rural village. Life was hard, and we had to do physical work intensively. I spent 10 years in the village, but I was still hoping to learn drawing and painting. One day, a very important figure came into my life. His name was He Youzhi (1922-2016), and he was sent by the government from Shanghai. I was one of three farm workers who were assigned to finish a serial drawing with him. He Youzhi was a drawing master, and also a very important person in Chinese art. I will never forget those days, because working with him was like living out a dream. He showed me how to build up stories, experiencing life, collecting ideas and materials, combining messages and even editing. This knowledge had a great impact on my work and is deeply rooted in my design work. He was a very good observer, with sharp eyes and a sense of humour. I always showed him my works, and he gave me a lot of advice. He was my teacher for life, and he showed me the right attitude for being a good person. He had a lot of passion for his work, and he kept drawing for his entire life. I am so grateful that I met He and Prof. Sugiura. They are both my mentors.
IO What do you expect from life? Or what does life in China expect from you?
JL I love design and it is a real blessing that I can do it every day. I am very satisfied. To be honest, I am already 70 years old, so rather than having expectations, I keep working and teaching daily. I want to foster more students and spread my philosophy and knowledge on book design to many, like a pastor. I also teach Master class, giving talks in schools and to publishers in different cities.
IO As a child, what was your dream career? And why did you become a designer later?
JL Influenced by my parents, my dream was to be a painter. My brother focused on shan shui and I did flowers and birds. Unfortunately, the Cultural Revolution in 1966 stopped everything. Once the revolution was over, I got introduced to the China Youth Press as art editor in 1978. They saw my portfolio and wanted me to work there. In the publishing house, I created illustrations, and later I also did cover designs. During 40 years of work, I worked with many writers, editors and scholars. The jobs were fun, and equipped me with good knowledge of the printing process. Gradually, the dream of being a painter was left behind. Even so, I still kept on painting until I heard what Prof. Sugiura said: “Which one is more powerful? Pushing at a target with a palm or a thumb? Since you are learning design, you should stay focused (obviously that means I was distracted). Bookmaking is a culturally based career. It takes tremendous energy and effort. You will never succeed without focus.” From that moment on, I put aside my brush.
IO Could you describe your typical working day routine?
JL Waking up at 7am, I start reading after breakfast and work from 9am to 12am. My wife is a doctor, and both of us are very busy. We only see each other once a week for dinner. It sounds strange, but this is our way of living. I live in my studio. Work is about everything, including looking at designs, meeting clients, and discussions. I don’t do design by myself. Instead, I let my team do it, leading them and giving them advice. Besides, I have teaching and many activities to participate in, such as exhibitions, seminars, and judging. Many students from Germany, Korea, Japan, Hong Kong, or Taiwan often come to visit. On weekends, I stay at my house in the mountains, farming vegetables and planting. I love being amid nature, and I like to see the way plants change through the four seasons.
IO Why do clients pick you as a designer? And what about clients when you were getting started?
JL Maybe I have the advantage of being “senior” in age and of having been in the industry for a long time. People have got to know my work well. The other reason is that clients usually come to me for a Chinese sense of taste, which the younger designers might pay less attention to. At the very beginning, there were only a few clients. I only received more clients in the last 30 years when I returned to China from Japan in 1993 after studying under Prof. Sugiura. Prof. Sugiura helped me to understand that design is about overall thinking, and that is why mastering editing skills is so important.
IO Are there any rituals associated with your design process?
JL Not at all. Nor is there any formula. However, I must read all the text and content before starting any book design. I read them in detail. My design is also about editing, adding messages to allow the book itself to speak. Let us take designing a history book as an example. I also research information and facts related to the characters, period, and all related items as supplementary materials, in both vertical and horizontal directions. I am never satisfied with a book design. Therefore, I spend plenty of time studying and interacting intervening the context. It might take years. I even take part in editing. Clients will give me the original content, and they are happy to let me decide how to do further research and design. I don’t care about how much effort I need to put in in order to deliver the best possible results. The choice of materials, paper, and printing method need to match with the topic. In some cases, the paper is handmade and the printing is done by hand.
IO I am curious. Will the design fee remain the same even when so much time and effort has been put in?
JL Yes. Everything remains the same. The quality of the book must come first.
IO Is there any hierarchy in your collaboration as a designer? Is this a norm in China?
JL My relationship with clients is equal. We can discuss and give opinions on the same ground, but this is not a norm in China. It takes time to fight for respect. The younger you are, the harder it is to attain equal status.
IO Do you compromise at work?
JL Usually, I am easily trusted by clients, but I have my principle, that is, to take two steps backwards and one step forward. I will listen to my clients as long as they are right, but I will not back down. In order for progress to be made, communication should be kept open.
IO What are the most enthusiasm-filled and most annoying moments in the design process?
JL The most exciting moment is when the materials arrive perfect and when our work is appreciated by clients. It is very annoying and often makes me angry when the materials and the text are not enough to form a book, and the clients seem confused and unwilling to fill in necessary information. Some clients do not realize the books are theirs not mine. It is important to tell them that it’s essential to have proper preparation. The other annoying moment is when my choice of materials and specifications are switched by the publisher because they want to save money.
IO Where do you get your feedback from? What feedback is important to you?
JL The most important feedback comes from authors, since books are their kids. I always ask their opinion after completing a project. Their responses are instant and honest because we made close friends during the design process. Other feedback comes from publishers. They will tell me if the books can sell well or not. I feel pleased when my books need to be reprinted and bring profits to my clients.
IO Who do you design for? For connoisseurs, or for everyone?
JL I design for book authors, no matter whether the book is for a small group or for the wider public. The number of readers is not my concern. I only work on books that interest me.
IO Do you think individuality is important?
JL Definitely, personality is the most important value in the world.
IO We looked at some of your work. They have plenty of sensory interaction, reminding me of Hendrik Werkman’s “temperature” approach to design. Could you share your view on these works?
JL When I make a book, I imagine how the book might be like a mother telling stories. The tone, expression, description, and choices of languages are all carefully considered, with a warm and comfy touch. This applies to every book, even a simple one. My mission is to arrange the sequence of messages, rhythm, layers, and hints scattered throughout the pages. I treat book making as storytelling. This design method is inspired by Prof. Sugiura, who taught me about the nature of “Noise” design. “Noise” is everywhere in life, in the background and surroundings. If you ignore these living elements, your design is cold. If you care about these things, your design is warm.
IO While commenting on the impact of technology, digital media, and publishing, you said that they opened up a golden opportunity for traditional book making. Could you please explain further?
JL Firstly, the digital market has taken away many readers from traditional publications, especially the younger ones. These changes have dragged publishers into a tough situation. Book sales have dropped dramatically, and they are losing money. To cope with this, reasonable publishers lower the quantity but raise the quality of books, to attract readers with good design taste. This also explains why my clients are paying more attention to details and why they are tending to produce more artistic books. Secondly, the changes in reading behaviour also lead to a change in values for the designer. In earlier times, many designers were asked to do only cover design for lower design fees, but less books in the market means that cover designers cannot survive for long. Eventually, only designers who can manage to deliver good and comprehensive design will stay, like Xiaomage. This is because design fees honestly reflect the value of a designer. Finally, from the reader’s point of view, less printed books creates a sense of scarcity. Books become superior, especially books with delicate design and printing. They draw readers’ attention far more than they did before. Opportunities come in as book design becomes trendy and culturally valued.
IO We can see that your work is permeated by your thoughts and ideas, such as wabi-sabi and emotions derived through reading. Might one say that this is intentional?
JL In fact, my design begins when the reader gets the book, touches it it, flips it and starts reading it, more than it does with the visual aspects. I intentionally design the whole contact process, leading the reader to interact with the book. Wabi-sabi is not limited to the enjoyment from the materials, but also the feelings realized in the process.
IO In other words, can we say that your book design goes beyond its traditional function as something to read? Is this idea a major trend in the industry?
JL You are right. I want to design books that readers can become involved with. My mode of design transcends book design beyond decoration, making the book a carrier that readers interact with, dive into and enjoy, and collect like a work of art. Some of my students, such as Yong Wu and Xiaomage, are doing the same, but this is not a mainstream idea. The mainstream of book design for the market is still very commercial, adopting a superficial approach.
IO So, other than the main stream of commercial publishing and designing book as a piece of art, are there any alternatives for publishing in China too?
JL Sadly, in China there are many restrictions on publication. Individuals cannot publish their own books freely, let alone put them in bookstores. However, individual publishing is emerging as a new trend recently. A small amount of editions can usually be seen in stationery stores and independent exhibitions. People are now aware that they can publish a book in their own words that will reach readers.
IO Can graphic design change people’s lives?
JL Absolutely. Small and independent bookstores are flourishing at the moment. This major trend is generating a new reading culture everywhere. People are leaving their screens to get back to bookstores and to read real books. Independent bookstores are also hosting events and activities. These bookstores are icons for a new lifestyle, and they attract a lot of visits. Besides, they are also the brewing places for art and music. Bookstores and book design are bringing about a change of behaviour.
IO If you were the dictator of the world of graphic design, what measures would you implement?
JL An increase of the fees paid to designers. Nowadays, young designers can barely make a living owing to the small amounts they are paid. More money should be spent on graphic design.
IO Last question: do you have any beliefs relating to design? Have you ever lost your belief?
JL Perhaps it is too lofty to talk about beliefs. I like my work as a designer. I love making books. I work every day, aiming for each book to be better than the last. This is my lifelong career. Sometimes it is painful and frustrating because there are only a few books that I have found to be successful and well made. (IO You are being humble!) Thus, every time a good topic comes in I am excited once again and determined to make it good. This sequence of ups and downs repeats all the time. I am grateful that my clients give me a lot of trust and always come to me. I believe in making good books to satisfy them. If you show people respect, then they will also show you respect. I use the word “Jingren” (respect people) in my name to form the word "Jingren-renjing” (respect each other), which reflects my belief.
It all started in 2002, when Perniclas Bedow lost his day job at an advertising agency. Trying to impress Stockholm’s design agencies with a lousy portfolio wasn’t the easiest task, and the industry’s neglect was the encouragement he needed to start his own studio — BEDOW. In 2011 — after juggling the ball alone for some years — Bedow took the opportunity to sign striker Anders Bollman. Midfielder Mattias Amnäs joined in 2014 and during 2016 fullback Kung Hiu Ching completed the squad. Occasionally, they take players on trial. The team resides in Stockholm.
The Interview took place in July 2018 between the IGV team IGV and Perniclas Bedow PB over emails, in Stockholm and Hamburg.
Cultural context
IGV What is an inspiring place for you in Sweden/Stockholm? What makes this place special to you?
PB My house. It’s a small house in a lovely neighbourhood. Since we are a family of four people, I have to use every square meter wisely. And at the same time as I am frustrated over the limited space, I am also very inspired to find solutions for a good living.
IGV Let me enlarge the geographic scale. What about Stockholm in general? Why do you like to live here? Is it a good place for graphic design?
PB To be honest, I don’t love it. Originally I come from Gothenburg on the Swedish west coast and that’s where my heart is. Even though Stockholm is a lovely seaside city, you can’t compare it to the west coast where the sea is alive – clear water, seafood, fishes, waves, storms. When it comes to graphic design, it’s the opposite – Stockholm is the place where it’s happening, and it’s also where the money is. That said, I think Swedish design in general relies too much on what some people call, “Scandinavian design”. I think we could step out of that comfort zone more often and expand our visual communication.
IGV Would you say that Stockholm is a typical Swedish town?
PB In many ways yes, but in a small country like Sweden the capital often becomes a melting pot and that opens it up for a variety of cultures.
IGV What characteristics come to mind when speaking of Swedish mentality? What are the problems that Swedish society is struggling with?
PB I would say that the Swedes are organised and friendly, but not always open to new things, and we sometimes have to struggle with acceptance.
IGV Which of your culture’s values could we learn something from?
PB I don’t know. You tell me. (laughs)
IGV What cultural influences – other than the Swedish ones – were important in your career?
PB Music. I was introduced to punk and indie music in the late 80s/early 90s and that influenced me a lot. I bought a lot of vinyl and used to play records in clubs and bars. Today I don’t really have the time to search for new music like I did then. Luckily, I have younger colleagues who help me out nowadays.
IGV How about Swedish pride?
PB I don’t know if we’re proud, someone from outside would probably be more able to tell. But we’re often ranked as a good country to live in and I assume that gives us a good self-confidence.
IGV What is the most beautiful thing you’ve ever seen? Does beauty play an important role in your work?
PB I never look for beautiful, I look for ugly. Beauty is just a temporary state — after a while it becomes standard, then it becomes boring and finally ugly and then it starts over. Ugly is the embryo of beautiful and I try to expose myself to as many ugly visual expressions as possible. That opens your mind. In my work, beauty is important because I have to understand what the client perceives as beautiful. Otherwise, I have a hard time convincing them to buy our work.
IGV How do you stay alert to the little miracles of everyday life?
PB I breathe slowly.
IGV What themes or ideas do you find particularly interesting/fascinating at the moment?
PB I’ve always been interested in psychology, in behaviour and in people. And I still am.
IGV What do you expect from life? What does life in Sweden expect from you?
PB My problem in life has always been high expectations, so I try not to expect anything. That way, I’m not disappointed.
IGV As a child, what was (were) your dream career(s)? What was the most significant experience of your youth, and did it influence your choice of profession?
PB I wanted to be a carpenter. I built tree houses when I was a child. And when I grew older I continued to build tree houses with my younger siblings. Today I build tree houses with my kids and I still wanna be a carpenter.
IGV In another interview, you said you find design more interesting than advertising. What do you consider to be the difference between design and advertising, and why are you more fascinated about design?
PB Design often goes much deeper into an organisation because it needs to last longer. Every decision should be anchored in the company’s business model to achieve consistency throughout the brand.
IGV Where were you educated as a graphic designer?
PB I never went to design school. I started with web design in the mid-90s and eventually started working in advertising. Everything I know about design and typography I’ve learned in antiquarian book shops or on Google.
IGV Are there other artistic or scientific disciplines that are important to you?
PB No, I like sports.
Working Life
IGV Could you describe your typical routine of a working day?
PB There’s not really a typical day when you run a small design studio, I do everything that needs to be done. Internal meetings, answering emails, client meetings, giving directions to designers, discussions with printers, writing quotes. Et cetera.
IGV What do you do on in your holidays / free time?
PB I build tree houses with my children.
IGV Would you say that design is your dream job now?
PB No, not at all. But running a studio suits me very well. Graphic design is just something I bumped into by coincidence. I might just as well have been a chef and run a restaurant.
IGV Why do clients pick you out as a designer? What are the core aspects of your design expertise?
PB I think they see that we have fun at work. And companies want to be a part of that. They want to look good and differentiate themselves from their competitors.
IGV In your opinion, what are the qualities a good graphic designer needs?
PB Someone who can find the narrative in a brand and is able to visualise it in a relevant way.
IGV How does your idea-finding process work?
PB We start with a workshop with the client. When we’re done with that, we know what to communicate, to whom and in what way. After that, it’s up to the designer to interpret our briefing, find the narrative and visualise it. We rarely work with mood boards, as they just encourage you to imitate what someone else did. We always aim to do something new.
IGV Are hierarchies important in your work and collaboration as a designer? What are these hierarchies?
PB In a small organisation you need to have someone who takes the final decisions, and that’s usually me. Often in dialogue with the designers, but since it’s my job to sell our work I need to have the last word. So I would say that we are hierarchical in one way, but on the other hand the designers have a lot of freedom and their work is of great importance. I never have a clue where we’re going. They’re the ones who come up with the solutions. My job is to advise them as to which direction to go in, and to convince the client as to why it’s a smart move.
IGV A compromise is always the result of a struggle. What are the typical conflicts that you have to fight with clients? And how do you handle such a conflict? What is the biggest compromise that you have ever had to accept?
PB The typical conflict with a client is how far we can go. We’re often leaning towards entropy and the client leans towards redundancy. A conflict like that takes patience, negotiation, and education. Some clients want to be generic. My opinion is that differentiation is usually better so I work hard to explain why we should go that way.
IGV What are the most encouraging and most annoying moments in the process?
PB By far the most annoying moment in a design process is when there are decision takers outside the team. It’s impossible to create something good if decisions are taken by people who are not involved in the process. If this happens, it takes a lot of time for both the client and us, and the result is often quite weak.
IGV Who do you get your feedback from? Do the studio team sometimes disagree with each other?
PB We give feedback on each other’s work and sometimes we agree and sometimes don’t. We are a democratic studio and respect each other’s opinions, but, as mentioned above, I am the one selling the work, so we need to present a solution that I can get behind.
IGV Design process or product: what is more important to you?
PB Product. The process is important, but if the result isn’t good enough the process is totally uninteresting to me.
IGV What about “stealing” from other designers?
PB That is my biggest fear. As long as I can remember I’ve tried to do things my way. That has not always been positive for me personally, but professionally I think we’ve built something unique. With that said, we have access to all the world’s visual expressions today and it’s impossible not to be affected by our context. But if we realise that we’re close to someone else’s work we always try to move in another direction.
IGV Can you make a lot of money in graphic design in Sweden?
PB You could probably make some money in this industry if you gave it a try, but money has never been something I strive for. There are so many different currencies in our industry, and money is just one of them.
IGV If you are asked to work on an advertising-based campaign, will you take it?
PB It depends on the company or product. I don’t have any problems with advertising per se, but if we do it we work with products and companies that we like.
Attitude
IGV Who do you design for? For connoisseurs, or for everyone?
PB Both. We try to take a step forward every time we do something. But we have to understand when to take a big step and when to take a small step. First of all, I want to create something that the client can benefit from, but I also want it to be appreciated by our colleagues in the industry. It’s not always easy, but we try.
IGV In your opinion, which are the most important contemporary and historic movements in graphic design?
PB I am not very interested in graphic design and never studied design so I don’t have a good answer to this. But when I discovered graphic design in the mid-90s, David Carson and Designers Republic were eye-openers to me. Beyond that, I’ve tried to do my own work.
IGV Do you think there is such a thing as “Swedish Design”? What would its underlying attitude be, and do you feel part of this movement/attitude? Why?
PB Not a typically Swedish design perhaps, but some people say “Scandinavian design” which might be described as a humble version of the International Style. It has its strengths, but I don’t see us as a part of that.
IGV Does it bore you to see Western (European) graphic design dominating the mainstream? How do you see Eastern or non-European graphic design?
PB Not at all. To be honest, I don’t know what is mainstream or not. I enjoy all kinds of typography, especially things I haven’t seen before.
IGV Could you share any experiences of working / communicating with a foreign culture? How do you overcome the differences and come to a solution with graphic design?
PB Graphic design is global today and we all see the same things so we rarely bump into any difficulties when it comes to the design part. What differs more is the organisational culture. We always try to take on interns from countries we haven’t had before, it’s interesting to learn about them and their culture.
IGV What is the most hypocritical thing that graphic designers say? Why?
PB That they work with art. That’s a lie. In the end, a graphic design sells products or services. It can be very commercial or it can be very arty, but in the end it should sell something. Art asks questions, design answers questions.
IGV What is the worst thing about contemporary (Swedish) graphic design?
PB The same as everywhere else: trends.
IGV Big question: Is graphic design important? Why?
PB I’ve read an article recently that ranked graphic design as one of the least important jobs for the future. I don’t agree at all, I think design solves a lot of problems in our daily communication and is important in the communication society we live in today. As far as I am concerned, this is a job for the future.
IGV Another big one: Can graphic design change society?
PB Yes, definitely. Something like the small adjustment to the disability pictogram that was made a while ago is a fantastic example of how a huge group of people can be more included in society.
IGV Which illusion do you hold onto at all costs?
PB I believe in progression. I try to avoid repeating the work we do.
Founded in 2003 by Kirsty Carter and Emma Thomas, A Practice for Everyday Life (APFEL) is a graphic design studio based in the UK. Today, APFEL consists of a team of seven members, located in Bethnal Green, London. apracticeforeverydaylife.com
The Interview took place in June 2018 between the IGV team IGV and APFEL AP over emails, in London and Hamburg.
On Culture
IGV What places in London do you find inspiring? What, for you, makes this place special? Why do you like living here? Is it a good place for graphic design?
APOur studio has been based in Bethnal Green, East London, since its inception in 2003, and many APFEL team members also live in this area. This particular part of East London is an interesting one in which to work and live – it has a rich history of making and craft, and it has been home to a longstanding population of workshops and furniture-makers both during and after the industrial revolution. The area has been popular with designers and studios for several years and is becoming more so as property prices in London rise and make areas previously popular within the industry such as Clerkenwell unaffordable. Present-day Bethnal Green now shows some signs of gentrification, but it still retains much of its traditional East End character, which is something we enjoy. There are many unexpected discoveries to be made in the neighbourhood – a ghost sign on the side of an old terrace that has been given an unexpected, sensitive restoration by local architects, or a shuttered and battered shop front, long assumed to be abandoned, that opens on odd evenings to reveal a small gallery. It’s easy to romanticise places like this, but the reality is that, like all its other occupants, we move through in the course of the everyday tasks demanded by work and life – journeys to visit clients or sites we’re working on, local errands, or daily travel to and from the studio. It’s these journeys and everyday experiences that find their way into our work.
IGV London is known for its traditions, royal family, foreign policies (colonies) and “splendid isolation.” Today, especially in the light of Brexit, there is always a sense of individuality and “not wanting to get entangled”. Is this cliché or truth? Does this apply to the design industry too?
APActually, we feel that the opposite is true – London is a multicultural city, and the design industry celebrates that. We see London as quite welcoming, with an international mind-set, and we certainly see that reflected in the design industry here. It’s very common for London-based design studios and agencies to employ people from around the world, and a healthy exchange of ideas exists with other countries and cities internationally.
IGV Would you say that London is typical of Britain?
AP In some ways, London represents many key aspects and attributes of Britain and Britishness, yet in other ways it is quite distinct from the rest of our country. As with any community, the city is shaped by its inhabitants, and the different demographics, industries and activities that go on within it. Even for a relatively small country, there is a remarkable degree of local variation within the UK. None of us in the studio are from London originally, so we all bring something of our own locality to the studio in one way or the other.
IGV What are the problems that British society is struggling with?
AP Brexit! In many ways, Britain is still struggling to define its post-colonial identity. The difficulties brought about by the recent recession have fuelled an anti-international mentality within certain facets of British society that we vehemently disagree with.
IGV Which of your culture’s values could we learn something from?
AP It’s hard to generalize, but there is a stoicism and sense of humour inherent in the British psyche that we both enjoy and consider valuable. Britain also has an amazing creative heritage, spanning an enormously broad range of individual disciplines, which continues to endure and thrive to this day.
IGV How about British pride?
AP The notion of British pride has been tainted in the past few years by its association with far right groups and xenophobic attitudes, and the idea of being proud of your nationality is still a slightly odd one for us – being born in one place rather than another is not an achievement! We would rather be proud of the work we do, of how we conduct ourselves, of our treatment of others and of what we can achieve.
Introducing the person
IGV Does beauty play an important role in your work?
AP As designers, beauty is certainly something we aspire to within our work, but not necessarily in terms of prettiness or a particular kind of elegance. We find beauty in all manner of different and sometimes unexpected places and things. It can also be interesting to use our work as designers to challenge ideas and perceptions of what is beautiful.
IGV How do you stay alert to the little miracles of everyday life?
AP Our studio takes its name from the title of a book called The Practice of Everyday Life by Michel de Certeau, in which the author describes his way of making sense of his city with eyes open, collecting materials and drawing together stories. This book has been an enormous influence on the way we think and work, and de Certeau’s approach to everyday life is one that keeps us alert to the small vernacular details of life that we enjoy so much, and which we try to reflect within our work.
IGV As a child, what was (were) your dream career(s)? Or: What was the most significant experience of your youth, and did it influence your choice of profession?
AP We are very lucky – this is our dream career and we can’t imagine doing anything else.
IGV Are there other artistic or scientific disciplines that are important for you?
AP We firmly believe that, as designers, our frame of reference should be broad, and that a diverse range of interests and reference points can only enrich our practice. Working as closely with the arts and cultural sectors as we do, we are of course interested in art, particularly conceptual work, but literature, history, science, philosophy and critical theory all feed into our work, and these interests help to shape the way we approach our design practice. Our team also brings a range of different specialisms to the table, both professionally and in terms of specialist interests.
Work
IGV Could you describe your typical working day routine?
AP There isn’t really a ‘typical’ day for us in the studio; that’s part of the reason we enjoy our work so much. Within a day we could be working on all manner of things: meeting clients or suppliers; visiting the site of a forthcoming project; reading and researching; sketching the letterforms of a typeface design; typesetting a book; testing exhibition text sizes; proofing images for printing; hand-drawing typography; or making detailed dummy books or packaging using intricate or specialist production methods.
IGV What do you do during holidays / free time?
AP We all enjoy travel, and we try to take the opportunity to discover and explore new places, both within the UK and overseas, in our free time. Most of the APFEL team are based in London, and we like to take in exhibitions and attend events in the city and beyond, both relating to art and design and focusing on subjects outside of this field. We try to engage with activities away from our computer screens, too. Sailing, pottery, sewing, jewellery-making, reading, even just enjoying food and conversation with friends – all these things help us relax but also feed back into our design practice.
IGV What are – in your eyes – the qualities of a good graphic designer?
AP Inquisitiveness, attention to detail, critical thinking, an understanding of the visual vernacular, good taste, and an awareness of the world around and outside of graphic design are all vital qualities. It’s as important to nurture your interests outside of the discipline, and to pursue other forms of knowledge, as it is to build an understanding of graphic design practice, theory, and history.
IGV Are there any rituals associated with your design processes?
AP Not really – we’re not sure how useful it is to mythologize the design process, and ritual implies a sense of repetition or a fixed approach that we take each time, which is not how we work. We prefer to tailor our approach to each individual project, according to the demands of the brief and the content we will be working with, and based on discussions with the client and the rest of the creative team. There is no one size fits all approach.
IGV A compromise is always the result of a struggle. What are the typical conflicts that arise between you and the clients? And how do you handle such a conflict? Or: What is the biggest compromise that you have had to accept?
AP It is important to us that our clients trust us, and because of that, they are willing to take risks within a project in order to create something distinctive, unexpected and out of the ordinary. Working collaboratively, as we always aim to do, helps to mitigate any conflicts, and problem-solving is an integral part of the design process. We work together with our clients and other members of larger creative teams we are part of, in order to arrive at an outcome that satisfies everyone without diluting the key central concepts that make it work as a design. It’s not always easy, but being able to articulate your ideas confidently and convincingly is a very important skill as a designer. It’s not just about coming up with a brilliant idea for a piece of work; you need to be able to inspire trust in your clients and occasionally persuade them to take risks, in order to innovate and create something new.
IGV Who do you get your feedback from? Do the APFEL team sometimes disagree with each other?
AP We have always tried to foster a studio environment in which we work as a team to collaboratively critique our own work, and often will get the whole of APFEL together to review proposals for a project. Encouraging debate within the studio helps us to develop as designers, and though there are sometimes conflicts of opinion, it’s rare that we find ourselves in a disagreement that we can’t resolve when it comes to our work.
IGV Design process or product: what is more important to you?
AP The two are mutually inclusive – you can’t have one or the other, so they are both equally important to us.
Attitude
IGV Who do you design for? For connoisseurs, or for everyone?
AP We want our work to be underpinned by a high standard of visual communication that should be accessible for everyone. Undoubtedly, people who are more familiar with graphic design or visual culture in general will likely interpret a piece of graphic design differently from a layman, but we believe that graphic design should not be exclusionary or intentionally obscure. We prefer to think in terms of layers of meaning, in relation to our own work – we like the idea that the closer you look and the more you investigate a piece of our work, the more details and ideas become apparent. We want our work to reward contemplation, as well as to have impact in a more instantaneous way.
IGV What are – in your eyes – the most important contemporary andhistoric movements in graphic design?
AP Modernism continues to be extremely influential and important within graphic design, and it’s a period of design history that we find fascinating. However, it’s important not to isolate and idolize certain movements or eras within design without considering their context, and appreciating what came before and what came after.
IGV Do you follow any meta-themes in your work? How and where do these concepts leave traces in your work?
AP We try to work in a way that is thoughtful, collaborative, focused, and informed by research and discussion. A lot of our work is quite playful, but executed in a minimal way; refined and edited in order for only the essential elements of an idea to remain. We are interested in the communicative power of objects as well as images and type, and we like to explore this through careful consideration of production techniques, materials and details as well as visual forms within our work. We want our work to be experiential as well as visual.
IGV Do you think there is such a thing as “British Design”? What would be its underlying attitude and do you feel part of this movement/attitude? Why?
AP Britain is an increasingly diverse place, so it's difficult to sum up a typically British graphic designer, or to pinpoint what characterises British design today. That's one of the best things about the design community in the UK – there is such a broad range of approaches and styles amongst graphic designers in this country. Britain, and in particular London, continues to have a strong design community, and people come here to work from all around the world – we hope very much that this will continue to be the case in the years to come. There is a rich heritage of brilliant graphic design in the UK that designers here manage to take inspiration from, whilst still moving the discipline forward. That interplay between old and new, together with a certain, indefinable sense of visual wit, is what typifies the British graphic design scene for us.
IGV Does it bore you to see Western (European) graphic design dominating the mainstream? How do you see Eastern or non-European graphic design?
AP We are always interested in exploring approaches to graphic design that are new to us, and there is an enormous amount of exciting work being done in graphic design the world over – we’re not really concerned with where the work comes from, as long as it’s built from interesting ideas and executed well.
IGV Could you share any experiences of working / communicating with a foreign culture? How do you overcome the differences and arrive at a solution with graphic design?
AP We work with clients from all around the world, and this frequently involves us engaging with cultures different from our own – it’s an experience we enjoy, as we always learn something. We often find that there are not really any major differences to overcome, beyond the need to build an understanding of the different ways in which other cultures and audiences read images. It’s always important to consider your audience and whether their visual or conceptual associations will be the same as our own; that isn’t something you can take for granted as a designer.
IGV Big question: Is graphic design important? Why?
AP We believe it is – graphic design is a means of communication, a conduit for information and one of the many codes through which we convey knowledge. The transfer of information is incredibly important. Where would any of us be without it?
IGV Another big one: Can graphic design change society?
AP It can certainly have a role to play within social change, in both obvious and subtle ways. Graphic design has the power to draw attention, and to shape both our understanding and our interpretation of the things we read, see, and experience.
Bananafish Books was established by Su Fei and Guan Wei in 2010 as the first art book bookstore which focus on importing independent publishing around the world. Bananafish Books is the pioneer of “independent publishing” in China, with the aim liberating self and small scale publishing from the traditional system. Both Su Fei and Guan Wei received their master degree in UK and Germany respectively. Both gained a lot of experiences and knowledge through visiting local independent bookstores, and brought their passion back to China. http://a-perfect-book-for-bananafish.com/
The Interview took place in March 2016. Ingo Offermanns IOmet with Su Fei SF & Guan Wei GW in Shanghai, China.
Introducing the cultural context
IO Is Shanghai a good place for graphic designers?
GW To fulfil their dreams, designers will go to Beijing. There are far more galleries in Beijing and Hangzhou than in Shanghai, and many illustrators and artists are located there. But Shanghai is more commercial than Beijing, and people there are more inclined to buy beautiful things. So it is a good place to do business.
IO Is Shanghai an inspiring place for you?
SF The city has changed a lot in the last five years. There are lots of lifestyle stores emerging around the Jing’an Temple. You can buy things like clothes or independent publications and enjoy all the beautiful buildings. The Longtang lanes represent the older and more traditional Shanghai. These are the most beautiful parts of the city. Shanghai is kind of easy to explore. By comparison, Beijing is more like a gated community, like a hutong. You have to know some locals who will take you to the beautiful places.
GW You see a lot of ugly things on Chinese streets. This kills your inspiration and your taste. So mostly we don’t get our inspiration from the places surrounding us. We get more inspiration from talking to people or friends, who are doing their own business.
IO Walter Nickel said that a graphic designer shouldn’t live in a place that was too beautiful, because it leaves them with no reason to get up and do something nice.
GW The role of design in China is very challenging. The big problem for us is the lack of an aesthetic standard in Chinese society. Over the past few decades, aesthetics haven’t played a big role in the daily life of most people. Graphic design or design in general can help to gradually extend the importance of aesthetics in Chinese society.
IO You said that there is no aesthetic standard within Chinese society compared to Europe. But thinking of the post war times in Germany – in those times nobody talked about beauty either. Looking at Chinese history, you have a long tradition of a very refined aesthetic standard. Is the ugliness you are talking about due to the speed of Chinese development right now?
SF It is mostly because of the Cultural Revolution. All those things were destroyed overnight. It is a whole generation’s tragedy. For more than ten years, people were living under pressure. Our parents’ generation lived in times of strong political pressure. They tried to survive or to leave. They had no culture or enjoyment in their daily life. Today we have a completely different approach to culture again. Over the decades, we have grown up, become parents, studied Chinese Culture, and gone abroad to study western culture. We bring foreign cultures into China. The people become aware of the idea of independence. We can publish something that wouldn’t have had a chance to be published before.
IO Many people are saying that the government is encouraging a revolution in craftsmanship and the old culture, pushing this kind of Chinese identity which is linked to a history that the forefathers of the communists destroyed.
GW In China, people hadn’t had the right to publish or print on paper as a means of expression for a long time. Independent publications were forbidden, as the Chinese government was very afraid of these. Publishing seems to be something very ordinary, but at the same time you can use it as a tool, you can broadcast widely to reach many people. Nowadays, Chinese people are still blocked in many ways – there is no free access to Google or Facebook, and we cannot read the New Yorker. And China is getting more conservative again. But we try to be the voice, telling the next generation that they have the right to publish. We are not doing something antisocial or anti–governmental, but we want to do something beautiful.
IO So, beauty plays an important role in your work?
GW Yes, it does, because the power of beauty can influence society in a positive way, whereas the ambiguity of beauty protects itself from censorship.
IO You said that you went abroad and brought back ideas from western culture. Which of your cultural values could other cultures learn from?
GW The flexibility of Chinese people. They tend to solve a problem no matter what. It seems like they have a large pool of methods to come to a solution. In 2006, when I lived in Germany, a roof caught fire at the street corner next to my studio. The repair took almost two years. In China it would have taken one week.
IO Both of you studied in Europe. Next to Chinese culture, is European culture the culture you are most interested in?
SF Japanese graphic design and book design has a great impact on us as well. Japanese design is very clean and focused in all its details. Every aspect is perfect. Apart from the content, the first thing you notice is that the craftsmanship is perfectly done. It is not how big the factory is, and it is not about the quality of the machines – it is about the quality of the workers. The technology is getting better and better but if the quality of the worker can’t measure up to the quality of the machine, the result can be a disaster. Japanese and German workers share a special kind of carefulness, a decent way of doing things. It seems that they respect the things they do a lot. We can learn from this.
Introducing the person
IO What is the most beautiful thing you’ve ever seen?
GW Not any one thing – many small things have an effect on your essential thoughts on life. Sometimes things seem to be very important in the moment they happen, but in retrospect their impact isn’t as important as it seemed. A kind of essential thought is planted at an early age, I don’t know how or by whom, but you have this essential thought. Everything else in life will interact with it, but you don’t really change, you always remain yourself.
IO To see all the small things whilst faced with the day-to-day pressures of life, you have to be sensitive and alert. How do you stay alert to the little miracles of everyday life?
SF As a couple and as business partners, we spend lots of time together, all day long. But the pressures of business life keep us so busy that we don’t have many chances to talk to each other, to discuss the things we like or dislike, to form conclusions. Sometimes we take some time off, invite each other round, and spent some time at a different place like a coffee bar or a friend’s restaurant, just to talk to each other. It is a way to clear our minds and take a breather in order to restart.
IO What does the society in China expect from you?
SF I think money and success are not the most important things here in China. What is more important is having a certain social status. You are supposed to have power in everything you do – if you are doing something you trained in, you are supposed to be the best, so that people will remember you. But expectations like this come more from the family rather than from the society in general. Chinese people are proud, but never self-secure.
IO What was your dream career as a child?
GW I wanted to be a scientist. I had a desire to understand how everything works. Moreover, in science there is often only one way to do something right. This black-and-white thinking fascinated me.
SF I wanted to be a textile designer. My mum was a textile designer and tailor, but she didn’t want me to follow in her footsteps. Maybe she thought it was too hard and kind of traditional or old fashioned. But when I grew up, I thought that designing things to make your home more beautiful could have been so sweet.
IO Why did you become graphic designers instead?
GW We didn’t start out as a design company or view ourselves as designers. I used to be a product designer, and neither of us have any graphic design background. My mother offered to allow me to study abroad and I decided to study design instead of aviation. I wanted to change things I didn’t like. Design was one way to do this. At that time, around the beginning of the 2000s, it seemed to me that graphic design was mostly about creating advertisements, and so I decided to study product design. While both of us were studying abroad, we discovered our interest in beautiful books and beautiful bookshops. This passion became our business when we returned to China. We didn’t know much about the business, we just did what we liked.
IO Are there other artistic disciplines that are important to you?
GW Well, I studied product design, so this influenced me a lot. I am not an adherent of mass production, as some ideas are more personal and are not meant to be produced for a high circulation. Nowadays people do things in an unnecessarily complex way. That is one reason for us to make use of technologies like for example the risograph. Sometimes limitations help us to figure out ideas.
IO Could you describe your typical routine of a working day?
SF As parents, we have to get up early. After sending our child to kindergarten, we start working around 8.30. I always make my schedule on the evening before, so I just open my calendar to look up what has to be done. We take care of our showroom, which is next to our studio, and the whole day we have visitors.
IO Is graphic design your dream job?
SF After graduating nine years ago, we had several jobs. I worked as a college teacher for two years, and I worked as a magazine editor and did some freelance jobs. Finally, we quit all our jobs to do what we enjoy. So, it is definitely our dream job.
IO Why do you think artists and writers pick you as a studio and want to work with you?
SF People come to us for our special approach in publishing. Our way of publishing is very different from the traditional ones, and this may be the reason why we are chosen by so many artists. From the marketing point of view, it is important to get people's attention through graphic design, because reading hasn’t the same value in China as it has, for instance, in Germany. Germans read 14 books per year, whilst the Chinese only read 0.7 books. A unique form of design is necessary.
IO In Germany, less and less people are reading as well, but the ones who read buy more and more books.
GW I think being responsible is what Bananafish stands for. We think about how to present a book in the most suitable way and try to do things in the best way we can. Other people wouldn’t do it that way. We have a more artistic working method and don’t concentrate too much on the business aspects. We use different ways of printing, fine paper and our graphical approach to make a story more attractive.
IO As publishers fighting for people to read, how do you distribute publications and reach people?
SF We have very small print runs, so we are not so worried about not selling them. We run a shop, but most people buy via the internet.
IO When you work with the authors, is there a certain ritual attached to the process of working together?
SF Chatting on WeChat? (laughs) Most of the works we publish are the work of friends. So working together is quite easy, because they know our approach.
IO So, hierarchies are not so important in your work and in your collaborations as designers?
GW No. We have personal and informal relationships with most of our clients, we don’t want to be seen as authorities. We are not interested in having power in the publishing market or anything.
IO Even if you work with friends, there are moments of conflict. How do you resolve these conflicts?
SF The solution is to talk to each other. When we are dealing with conflicts relating to design topics, we will discuss the different aspects in a meeting. Design can be negotiated, but if the ideas threaten to break the budget, I try to persuade.
IO What are the most enthusiastic and most annoying moments in the process?
GW If I have any doubts as to whether a project is a success or not, it is great to get positive feedback by clients. It can lead to some annoying moments if we talk to an author about a new project, and he or she has too many ideas about the whole thing. We like to develop ideas together with our clients, and we do not just want to implement the ideas of others.
IO Design process or product: which is more important to you?
GW Myself, as a designer, I do enjoy the design process far more. But the company needs good results, so they are important as well.
IO Can you make a living from what you do here?
SF After five years it was alright. We will not get rich, but we can make a living. People invite us to do workshops, or want to rent the risograph machines. Sometimes we design products for galleries. We try our best!
Attitude
IO Who do you design for? For connoisseurs, or for everyone?
GW One designer said: “I just do the things I am good at in my style, the people who likes it will buy my stuff. I don’t have to care about the other ones, they have other choices.” It’s the same for us. We have a certain standard of aesthetics and certain subjects that we are interested in, so we just do it.
IO How important is individuality to you?
GW I like the idea of the way the world was 100 years ago. Back then you really would discover something completely new when you visited other places. Today, you know everything, you see and can buy the same things everywhere. That is not a good thing for me, sometimes mainstream seems like brainwashing. We try to do small and interesting things and I don’t see the necessity to do it very big. Different groups have different thoughts, and people should have a variety to choose from.
SF Many of our publications have a print run of 100. I think other people should accept this kind of culture. I want to sell these 100 ‘zines only to people who really love them. Our credo is: make less and sell it to the right people.
IO You told me that you brought the idea of self-publishing to China, but you had to make some changes so that it would work in China. What is specifically “Chinese” in your products?
SF I think Chinese people are obsessed with information. They want to get as much information as possible and when they open a book with a small number of pages they are very disappointed. We try to make the value of each book more visible. This value needs to be visible instantly, to be made substantial in some way.
IO Would you say there is an overarching topic that the design scene in China cares about? We heard that many designers care about identity, the Chinese character, and thinking about what a specifically Chinese design method looks like. Could you add any other topics?
GW We are not so connected to the wider design scene. We have some designer friends who have interesting thoughts about Chinese typography, the hot letterpress, or traditional handcraft. There is a lot of research about these topics, but we ourselves are not so interested in it.
IO Would you say that graphic design is important in a general way?
GW Yes, definitely. Graphic Design is used a lot in the public space and should have a certain quality and be up to a certain standard in order to function in the right way. Bananafish doesn’t concentrate solely on graphic design; we see publishing and graphic design more as cultural action. In publishing, you can interact with the wider cultural field. We want to try out the independent publishing mentality in our environment and see whether it is accepted, and what we should do differently in comparison to European or American small publishers.
IO If you were the dictator of the graphic design world, what measures would you implement?
GW Well, I don’t like things that exist for no reason. Without these things we would have less noise, less distraction.
IO Have you ever lost your belief in your ideals?
GW On the contrary, we still have many thoughts and wishes. We just have to wait for the right time to realize them. I would like to have more insight into other jobs. You know, everyone is a specialist in his own field, but knowing more about how others deal with conditions is a win-win situation for everybody.
Born in 1974, is a Beijing-based graphic designer, who has worked together with her partner Cheng Zi since their studies at the Academy of Fine Arts, Tsinghua University. Starting as an editor at the China Youth Press, she and her partner launched their design studio Xiao Mage & Cheng Zi in 2007. They intentionally run a small studio, focused on the cultural field. Unfortunately, they don’t have a website.
The interview took place in March 2016. Ingo OffermannsIOmet with Xiao MageXMin Beijing.
Introducing the cultural context
IOXiao Mage, what is an inspiring place for you in Beijing?
XMComing from Qingdao, Beijing culture is very different for me, but I’m curious about these cultural differences and clashes. That said, I like wandering through the hutongs. They bring together both sides of Beijing culture—tradition and modernity.
IOYou stated in an earlier interview that Beijing is the cultural center of China, whereas Shanghai is the economic center. Does this make Beijing a good place for designers?
XMYes, it does. Apart from the fact that you’ll find a lot of museums, cultural institutions, and galleries in Beijing, this also has to do with the mix of tradition and modernity here. You can study the history of Chinese culture, as well as the trends of today and tomorrow in this city. The perspective in Shanghai is rather focused on the future. But Shanghai’s economic emphasis certainly offers good possibilities for graphic design.
IOBeing in China for several weeks now, I sense an enormous energy—an energy of change that is remarkable in the history of industrialization. How does this affect traditional values like balance, collectiveness, and naturalness?
XMAt first glance, substantial changes and traditional values seem to be contradictory. This may have been true some 15 years ago when economic matters overshadowed all aspects of life in China. But this has changed. Chinese traditional culture is highly valued, and nowadays government, industry, and wealthy individuals are supporting art and design. They don’t just open museums or cultural sites; they also stimulate a discussion about contemporary and traditional values. I’m not saying all of this is perfect, but it does bring back an awareness of cultural values.
IOWhich of your cultural values could be a model for others?
XMThis is really difficult to answer.
Introducing the person
IOWhat is the most beautiful thing you’ve ever seen?
XMI wouldn’t think of an object in this respect. Experiencing freedom and peace are the most beautiful things to me—freedom and peace to develop a design.
IOWhat do you expect from life?
XMI don’t expect anything. There’s beauty in everyday life. A couple of years ago, I didn’t put much thought into these things. I was more or less a workaholic, working through the nights and pushing my limits. But then I got seriously sick and had to undergo surgery. This made me change my mind.
IOWhat was your dream career as a child?
XMI wanted to be a scientist, but I was always changing my mind. Just like kids do. You cannot really take this seriously. You can only speak of true interest once you start to develop a certain stamina for a discipline. This happened for me in art classes at school.
IOIs graphic design a dream career for you?
XMMaybe or maybe not…
Working life
IOWhere do you get your inspiration from? Do other artistic disciplines play a role in this?
XMAll kinds…For example traveling—being “on the road”—inspires me the most. And I mean this literally and figuratively. The unforeseen intrigues me. But also the aspect of traces—traces that one discovers and traces that one leaves. Designing a book is a form of traveling, through thoughts, impressions, and expressions. I love the idea that things I cannot control—things from the margins of my perception—leave traces in my design.
IOWhat’s your typical work day like?
XMThere’s no regularity. I’m not such an organized person. I stay up late and sleep in.
IODo you take days off or go on vacation?
XMI haven’t had many days off since starting my career. Even if I travel somewhere, I’m still working to a degree. But this is quite normal in China. The Western concept of being unreachable during vacation is quite surprising for Chinese people. I experienced this once with a Dutch curator, who had commissioned an urgent work and then went off to Egypt for a month. She was unreachable for the whole period and left all the work to me. I’m envious…(Laughs)
IOWhy do your clients pick you as a designer?
XMMaybe they’re looking forward to seeing different works. In fact, most of the clients I work for are regulars, so we have an established relationship of mutual trust and understanding.
IOHow does your idea finding process work?
XMWith a catalogue, for example, research is the starting point—research about the artistic work and the artist’s biography. If possible, we also visit the artist in his or her studio in order to get an idea of the atmosphere in which his or her art is being developed. I try to be open to the background noises—for the traces that the artists leave in their environment. Something supposedly neglected on the ground or the wall can be inspirational. In one case, we found intriguing telephone sketches, for example. At that point, I start to interpret what I experience and try to go beyond the obvious level of basic research. My aim is to convey parts of the artist’s context and personality, next to his or her artistic work. But this part of the design process doesn’t follow a specific procedure. The process becomes vague, in a positive sense.
IOThis sounds to me as if you work pretty much at the same eye level with your clients.
XMWe actually insist on flat hierarchies. When you book us, you should book us for our approach. This doesn’t mean that we don’t want to argue, but we want to argue at a certain level that we stand for.
IOIs this an extraordinary position in China?
XMI think this has more to do with the size of our studio than the country. If you run a big studio, you are less independent and flexible than a small studio with two designers, like our’s. Even though we don’t mind meaningful compromises, a small studio can be more consequent in pursuing a specific artistic approach.
Attitude
IOWhat are the qualities of a good graphic designer?
XMThat’s a big question, because its undercurrent is the question: What is good graphic design? I don’t wish to answer this; however, working on precise craftsmanship would be a good start.
IOWhat’s more important for you, the design process or the product?
XMYou cannot really separate one from the other.
IODo you design for connoisseurs or for everyone?
XMI design for connoisseurs. It’s impossible to design for everyone. Like cooking, it’s related to personal taste and sophistication.
IOEuropean graphic design often approaches experimentation as (self-centered and brutal) deconstruction. Looking at your works, they are very experimental, rich in contrast, and playful, and yet still balanced and dignified. Your experimentation somehow remains personal and humble. Is this a guiding principle in your design approach?
XMActually, I don’t see my approach as experimental. I don’t set things up to turn out in unexpected ways. I try to find an intense expression of the content in every detail of the book. This sometimes leads to unusual design solutions. But I don’t see this as experimental, because it is closely linked to the content. Being unconventional doesn’t necessarily equate to being experimental…
IOAre there ideas that the entire graphic design scene in China is concerned about?
XMThere is no such thing as a coherent graphic design scene in China. In general, a lot of designers are busy establishing graphic design as a respected profession. Since graphic design is not as respected as architectural design, for example, it is not the subject of attention.
IODo you ever lose your belief in your art?
XMI wouldn’t say that I’ve lost my belief in it before, but I’m shaken by serious doubts quite regularly. And sometimes I ask myself whether all the effort that I invest in graphic design is really worth it at the end of the day.
Creative Director and Co-founder of Farmgroup, an independent design consultancy based in Bangkok with a clientele that ranges from Vogue Magazine to the Football Association of Thailand. Tap was a finalist for Thai Designer of The Year in 2015. He serves as the Vice President for Thai Graphic Designers Association and is currently a visiting professor at Chulalongkorn University. http://farmgroup.co.th/profile/
The interview took place in January 2016. Ingo Offermanns IOmet with Tap Kruavanichkit TKat his studio in Bangkok, Thailand.
Introducing the cultural context
IOTap, what is the most inspiring place for you in Bangkok?
TKI don’t need to be inspired to create—I just go to my studio and get to work. I draw inspiration from everything. Though, there are a few places that do particularly inspire me—not graphically, but because the music they play captivates me. Studio Lam is one of these places. They are into old Thai soul music.
IOIs Bangkok a good place for graphic design?
TKNot yet. There aren’t a lot of jobs, and clients don’t pay enough, because they don’t appreciate graphic design’s potential yet. However, Bangkok is an intriguing metropolis, so people are interested in coming here and helping to develop the profession. At the moment, design studios in Bangkok are figuring out how to be full-time graphic designers and make a living from it. Ultimately, it’s more or less the only place in Thailand for serious graphic designers, because it’s the only developed city. Even an hour outside of Bangkok, you’ll see a drastic change. Consequently, my clientele range is very small in comparison to the population—that narrows down business possibilities.
IOWould you say that there is a typical Thai approach to graphic design?
TKThat’s difficult to say. You could maybe characterize Thai graphic design as colorful and vibrant. This might have to do with the open sky, bright sun, colorful temples, and the chaos surrounding us.
IOWhich of your cultural values could be a model for others?
TKEvery culture is unique to the people that belong to it. I wouldn’t suggest that anyone model their culture after ours. Cultures are things that needs to be developed over time, and their diversity in every corner of the world is what makes this world an incredible place.
Introducing the person
IOWhy did you decide to study in the U.S.?
TKWell, I was a bad kid, so my mom decided that studying abroad would help me mature. She planned everything and revealed her plan to me just weeks before school started. This is also a middle and upper class trend in Thailand. Because schools and universities are not the best here, those who have the money send their children abroad for a better education. At that time it also was the only chance to get a proper education in graphic design, because it’s a very young discipline here in Thailand. Satit Kalawantavanich—one of the founders of the first professional Thai graphic design company (Sam Nor Company)—hasn’t even retired yet.
IOWhat was your dream career as a child?
TKI always wanted to be an architect.
IOWhy did you become a graphic designer instead?
TKI suck at math and physics for one, and I got into graphic design by chance. In the U.S. I first started working on animation films, because Disney studios was experiencing a comeback at the time. But I didn’t like it at all. So during a summer break in Thailand, I interned at The Bandits, a production company that did TV commercials and music videos, hoping to find a discipline within that genre that would suit me. I ended up typing letters for our location scouts. That’s when I noticed the company’s letterhead and corporate identity system. I was really fascinated by it. I looked into who had designed their system and was blown away by the work by the graphic designer Chatchaval Khonkajee from Blind Studios. He is still one of my heroes today. When I got back to the U.S., I switched to graphic design.
IOAre there other artistic disciplines that are important to you?
TKI’m still obsessed with architecture. I love photographing architecture just as much as street typography, and I read a lot about the subject, because my company is sometimes involved in extraordinary architectural projects. And since we help quite a few art-based projects, I’m interested in fine art as well. But I should also mention music and—fashion-wise—sneakers. I spend a big part of my savings on sneakers.
IOWhat do you expect from life, and what does life expect from you?
TKThat’s a peculiar question. We don’t have these masterplans in Thailand, and I don’t feel pressured by expectations from others. As a society, we are very laid back and live from day to day. I just want to play my part in improving and progressing Thai culture and our community.
Working life
IOCould you describe your typical workday?
TKI’m usually the first one at the office. I check my daily agenda and get to work. Every day can be different: meetings, presentations, design work, or coaching my employees. We have an hour lunch break, and at 6 pm everybody goes home. My motto is: work eight hours, play eight hours, sleep eight hours. I don’t believe in working at night or on the weekend. None of it is good for the profession or for society. If you are well-organized and disciplined, you should be able to work like a regular company.
IOHow does your brainstorming process work?
TKI work very process driven. I wouldn’t call it conceptual or artistic, but more scientific. I put the design brief and the things I know into an equation—this leads to a design solution. The rest is a matter of formal taste.
IOThis sounds to me like a very rational approach, right?
TKThere are so many approaches in graphic design. For example, K Kelvin, who works for the music industry, interprets; he is asked to implement his idea and signature. Our projects demand a different approach, because our clients are very heterogeneous, and they come to us with large scale communication problems. I sometimes feel like a physician—making a case history and diagnosis in order to find the best solution.
IOAre there any rituals associated with your design process?
TKWhen I drive, when I eat, when I’m in the bathroom, there are things that I process in my head…But physically we set up mood boards and open-minded discovery sessions, where we bring together whatever we can find out about a topic.
IOLooking at your portfolio, I see a whole range of graphic styles and genres, like corporate identities, books, or signage systems. Did you compose your team of experts from all of these fields, or is everybody a versatile player?
TKAfter graduating from university, I worked as a designer for an architectural studio and gained a lot of experience in signage systems and exhibition design. But looking at the projects we’ve done over the past ten years, I was involved in each of them, because I like the challenges of the unknown that you encounter in the graphic design business. Each team member has a specific passion and expertise, but all of them like to leave their comfort zone.
IOWhy do you think clients pick you as a studio?
TKMy friends say that my company has a specific style, but I don’t think this is the reason clients approach us. It’s probably a combination of being easy to talk to and being business-minded. When I started to work professionally as a graphic designer, I was all about experimenting. I wanted to develop new graphic languages and be expressive, more or less regardless of a client’s anxieties. Now that I have a family and 20 employees relying on me, I think more in terms of business. But economics is only one side of the story. Pushing the business side of graphic design is also an effort to establish graphic design as a serious professional discipline in Thai society—as a profession that goes way beyond matters of taste.
Attitude
IOIs graphic design your dream job?
TKYes, because I’m able to find a balance between what I can do well and what I can make a living from. Plus, it doesn’t really feel like work—It’s more play than work. A lot of youngsters see it as a dream job too. Though, their motivation is different. The street art graffiti scene has contributed a lot to their idea of graphic design, but unfortunately their understanding is sometimes too shallow. They often don’t consider professional circumstances, or even the importance of communication, self-expression, and individuality. As a result, only about 15 % of these students really end up working in this field. That’s a problem on various levels.
IOWhat are important notions for your work?
TKTransparency and change. As graphic designers, we have the responsibility to be truthful. Sometimes clients come to us with a heroic picture of themselves that they want us wrap a design around. We always try to analyze what is behind that desire and what a client’s real qualities are. We discuss these issues openly with our clients, because we believe that only transparency is viable in the long run. Change is important to me because visual communication needs to be developed in Thailand. We have to enhance our visual tradition and communicative mindset by applying experiences and knowledge from the U.S. and Europe. Therefore, we always try to push boundaries in our work—we don’t go for the common, safe solution.
IOWould you say that graphic design is important, in general?
TKYes, because graphic design can help solve communication problems, especially in Thailand. Just think of the Suvarnabhumi airport: It has a terrible signage system, yet it’s one of the most expensive airports in the world. Good graphic design would make the airport more efficient. But I’m also talking about traffic signs and school books, for example. Graphic design can help make things clearer, simpler, more transparent, and more accessible.
IOWould you say then that graphic design can change society?
TKPutting it that way is maybe too extreme. I do think that graphic design can be a part of social change. It can contribute to better understanding for one. Just think of the devastating flood here in Thailand a couple of years ago. No one really knew what was going on or what had caused this catastrophe. Then a group of designers came up with infographics that creatively illustrated the water levels and the flood paths in the city and how efforts were being taken to handle the situation. This really helped to prevent panic. Some of our designers joined the project too.
IODo you think that graphic design only exists within a capitalist system?
TKNo, not necessarily. There’s one graphic designer in South Korea, for example, who only focuses on designing school textbooks, improving usability to enhance learning. And our signage system for Chinatown in Bangkok is meant to improve daily (social) life. I don’t, however, have any problems with capitalism. In fact, here in Thailand sometimes you can rely on commercial companies more than governmental institutions. Maybe we should put it this way: Graphic design needs a certain prosperity in society. Without this fundament, people care more about earning money for the next meal or a minimum level of education. They don’t have energy left for the nuances of art or design. This is a problem we are still struggling with in Thailand.
IOIf you were the dictator of the graphic design world, what measures would you implement?
Creative director / Designer. Born in Fukuoka, 1974. Graduated from a university of foreign studies, and studied graphic design in London for a year. After working for companies like Interbrand as a graphic designer and project manager, he set up an alternative workspace called OOO—Out Of Office in 2008, followed by OOO Projects in 2010. http://www.outofoffice.jp/
The interview took place in January 2016. Ingo Offermanns IOmet with Tetsuya Goto TGin Osaka, Japan.
Introducing the cultural context
IOTetsuya, I suggested we meet at one of your favorite places in Osaka. You chose a small bookshop that also serves as a café and gallery. Why is this place and neighborhood inspiring for you?
TGActually I’m not the kind of person who is always looking for something new. I want to live a calm life and just be myself. This is a spot in Osaka where I can do this, where I can think deeply. This place is some kind of “oasis” in Osaka, which is known to be a straight forward and noisy metropole in Japan. And I’m not talking about traffic. I’m talking about the people. They have their own dialect and they speak loud. In other regions of Japan, people care more about silence and collectiveness—one shouldn’t express something not necessary. Though, maybe they are thinking too much about others, so that they don’t express their opinion. Osaka people do so. This might be the reason why nine out of ten comedians in Japan come from Osaka…
IOIt seems to me that Japanese people combine Chinese, Japanese, and European influences and traditions in a unique way. Maybe Japanese culture tends to take things to the extreme.
TGThat’s true, but we don’t look upon it as extreme. We have no “western” sense of efficiency. After working some time in Europe, I realized that western people are often driven by logical thinking. They tend to plan the whole (design) working process. And when they reach the planned endpoint, for them, work is completed. In Japan, we don’t set our goals before we start. Our “briefing culture” is very vague. I would put it this way: We are making things while thinking. We don’t come up with the thought first. We start following a promising path towards a rather vague idea, curious about where it takes us. Along the way, we might already go pass the point that we need to go, but we don’t even realize it. That’s what might look extreme to western people. Japanese people are taught to work thoroughly, deeply. Stopping halfway is not a good thing in our culture. But I have to admit, this makes us not very efficient.
IO“Mono no aware” and “wabi-sabi” are—as far as I know—two keywords in Japanese aesthetics. Mono no aware stands for the awareness of the impermanence of all things and the gentle sadness that comes with that knowledge. Wabi-sabi is characterized by the beauty of the imperfect and the incomplete. How does your working approach connect to these concepts?
TGMono no aware and wabi-sabi are somehow part of our mentality. But most people of my generation or younger generations have never really studied the meaning of them. We do understand that mono no aware is about ephemerality and that wabi-sabi is about the quality of imperfection, but when working as graphic designers, we don’t think too much about it.
IOAfter a few days in Osaka—looking at cutting edge architecture and experiencing a perfect public transit system, for example—it seems to me as if I’m in the most modern country that I’ve ever seen. Is the Japanese society as progressive as the cities you’ve lived in?
TGIn a way our customs are still influenced by traditions like Confucianism, but our lifestyle is indeed very modern. It’s complicated and somehow ambiguous: Our language is Japanese, our customs are Japanese and / or Chinese and / or Korean, but our regular life has gotten disconnected from the past. From the post-war era until now, we have completely destroyed and rebuilt Japan. So, we have no cultural constraint. Beyond this, Japan is an island with only limited resources. We have to import a lot of things (also cultural ones). Maybe that’s why we mix for example Punk with Bossanova. Everything is even for us. We tend to translate everything into our culture to fill the gaps of our destroyed history. In that sense, we are living in a very modern, hybrid culture. It’s Japanese and at the same time some kind of new, non-Japanese culture.
IOFrom a European point of view, the result sometimes looks brash. How does this wild, mixed culture clash with the appreciation of silence that you mentioned earlier?
TGDesign-wise, there are these two sides to Japan: On one hand, we have the white, clean, restrained, almost sacred approach, represented for example by the Japanese retail company Muji. On the other hand, we have this very messy, colorful, and expressive approach that you can observe in the streets or in Manga publications. For me there is no conflict, but a diversity in our culture—that, admittedly, some people don’t want to accept as authentic Japanese culture.
IOAre there any Japanese values that could be a “role model” for other cultures?
TGConsidering positive values in contemporary Japanese culture, I would point to the ability to accept ephemerality and the ability to handle the contradictions of hybridity. One could even look at ephemerality and hybridity as two interdependent phenomena. But actually, I feel quite uncomfortable with the term “role model”…
IOLooking at your graphic design work, I recognize quite a few references to European modernism. What cultures influenced you along with Japanese culture?
TGI never properly studied graphic design. After graduating in Foreign Studies and English, I started my design practice by teaching myself. We are talking about the mid-90’s when Macintosh systems were adopted by the industry. The democratization of design work had just begun; anyone could start designing without an education in the crafts of graphic design. Back then I didn’t know anything about the history of graphic design or about graphic design scenes in other countries. My aesthetic references mostly came from music. I’m especially into music from the UK. Though I also liked Peter Saville and Tomato’s work. Republic, David Carson, and video game graphics were influential as well. But back then I just liked the artifacts. I didn’t know who made them. In a way, all of these things influenced my attitude more than my design language.
Introducing the person
IOWhat aesthetic or cultural ideas do you find particularly fascinating at the moment?
TGI’m very interested in how the concept of design—a phenomenon of western culture and history—could be translated into our culture. What most people in Japan call design is craft or art. The more abstract approach to form artifacts, which is a characteristic of design, is rather new in Japan and other Asian countries. And there is something that I hope to achieve professionally: I want to be a bridge between people and societies. Even though Japanese culture imports a lot of resources, we still stay isolated. We’re not so good at connecting back to other cultures. This attitude has no future, and I want to help get past it by nurturing a culture of translation.
IOFor me that’s one of the core aspects of graphic design…
TGYes. And I’m not talking about mirroring or literal translation. I’m talking about a translation that takes serious cultural gaps into consideration.
IOAre there other artistic or scientific disciplines that influence your work?
TGI’m very interested in economics, because graphic design is a part of it. Even though I mostly work for cultural institutions, my work has to “sell” as well. I don’t see myself as an “artist designer”. I even think that such an attitude is problematic. My work serves others, and my responsibility is to make this work function within the editorial and economic strategies of my clients. Therefore, I’m very interested in the dynamics of contemporary economics.
Working life
IOAre there any rituals associated with your design process?
TGThere is a mutual starting point to all my projects: I start with words and texts. And I start with a notebook, not with a computer. Sketching a concept makes me focus on the purpose of the commission. By European standards that’s probably normal, but in Japan it’s a rather new approach.
IOAre hierarchies important in your work?
TGOn small projects with cultural institutions, it’s not an issue. The commissioner, editor and designer decide at eye level. But if you work on commercial projects for bigger clients, hierarchy is an important issue in Japan. The problem is that the bosses usually make decisions based on their personal tastes, changing their minds over and over again. And as a designer you have to execute all these decisions without questioning them. In my opinion that is a waste of time and money. Fortunately, in recent years, some companies have started to change their mindset. They understand the quality of a precise briefing. But the majority still stick to the top-down trial and error method.
IOHow about compromises?
TGCompromises are an integral part of graphic design, but I wouldn’t use the term “compromise”. Mutual involvement or participation are better descriptions for what I mean. As I said earlier, I don’t see myself as an artist. I’m not so interested in imposing my ideas on things or situations, but in bringing things, ideas, and people together. I don’t want to handcuff anyone. Nevertheless, I want to be taken seriously as a designer and mediator.
IOWhen do you start fighting for your ideas?
TGI’m not a good fighter. Either we get along with each other, or we don’t. The commissioners should know my work and my approach before hiring me. If there are serious misunderstandings, or if they want something opposite to what I stand for—I quit.
IOWhat are the most enthusiastic and the most frustrating moments in the design process?
TGThe most enthusiastic moment is probably the beginning, when I’m sketching with words, sentences, and basic forms. This is a moment of understanding and virtual creating—when you feel a conceptual breakthrough. Then, I have a feeling of clarity and genius. But sometimes when I try to bring these thoughts into a precise form, I’m confronted with a lack of skills, aesthetics, and so on. You have to struggle not to loose this clarity. This is probably the most frustrating moment.
IOWho do you get your feedback from?
TGI go to non-Japanese people, because Japanese people don’t give honest feedback.
IOWhat is more important for you, the design process or the final product?
TGI should answer that the product is the most important thing, but I continue doing this profession because I really enjoy the process.
IOBeing a graphic designer—is it a dream job?
TGSince I’m my own boss, being able to organize my workday by myself, I feel like I’m in an ideal position. I can work on whatever fascinates me. Yet, I don’t know if it’s a dream job in general. You can’t make a fortune with it, and you have to put a lot of effort into it…On the other hand, graphic design contributes to society. So, personally, I’m really satisfied.
Attitude
IOWhat are the qualities of good graphic design?
TGGood graphic design is a visual artifact that functions. Beauty that doesn’t function is insufficient graphic design. It should be logical, beautiful, and functional at the same time.
IOHow important is individuality to you?
TGIndividuality is very important for me. You might think that this clashes with the general appreciation of collectiveness in Japan, China, or Korea. But I’m not talking about creating a distinctive and witty profile of myself. I’m talking about deciding for myself. A lot of people in Japan don’t think for themselves. They conduct their lives according to what others expect or do.
IOBig question: Is graphic design important?
TGYes, definitely. But I am not sure whether graphic design defined by graphic designers is important. Visual communication is an integral part of complex societies. Particularly in modern capitalistic societies, it guides people‘s attention. This is a quality, but also a danger. And that’s why it should be taken seriously.
IOWhat are the important notions in Japanese graphic design?
TGCraftsmanship and detail are important notions in design, architecture, and art. A lot of people would probably also say concept, but in my opinion that’s a self-delusion. I really think that Japanese design is more about composition and refinement. Maybe one could even state that there’s a lack of concept in Japan. I think this has to do with the structure of Japanese society. Japan is a highly contextual and hermetic society. Only 2 percent of our population is non-Japanese. Although we have some ethnic particularities, like for example the Ainu in Hokkaido, we basically all look the same and are brought up within the same environment, cherishing the same codes of collectiveness. In daily life we don’t really need to explain ourselves. Mutual context creates easy understanding. It may sound funny to you, but almost everything can be communicated without a smart concept—because within a concept, you don’t need a concept. But, as I said earlier, Japanese graphic designers are getting more and more curious about the concept of concept.
IOLast question: Can graphic designers change society?
TGI don’t think graphic designers can change society, but they can change the design of society.
Born in Chuncheon (north of Seoul), is the publisher and editor in chief of GRAPHIC. GRAPHIC is a graphic magazine published in Seoul, Korea. The magazine, first published in January 2007, focuses on graphic design trends that are different from the mainstream and on the phenomena thereof. Its editorial policy is defined by an in-depth approach to one theme per issue. GRAPHIC is an independent magazine and does not depend on sponsors or any governmental organizations for financial help, but rather aims at more creative and independent journalism by emancipating its own editorship from them. www.graphicmag.kr
The interview took place in January 2016. Ingo OffermannsIOmet with Kwangchul KimKKin Seoul, South Korea.
Introducing the cultural context
IOKwangchul Kim, what is an inspiring place for you in Seoul?
KKThere is a district called Hongdae (Hongik University) in Seoul. It is well-known for being the center of indie culture as well as the birth place of youth culture. A miniature version of Korean culture, I’d say. It’s a place that allows opposites to coexist, such as beauty and ugliness, art and commercial, artists and philistines, creators and bystanders. I’m inspired by this in many aspects, most of all by the fact that there you can find the most innovative and banal things densely living together. The GRAPHIC office is located on the edge of Hongdae where a lot of other publishers are located as well. Just by observing their publishing activities, I get inspired in many ways. Even by their outfits.
IOWhat about Seoul in general? Is it a good city for graphic designers?
KKProbably. Even though it is still limited to the cultural sector, the need for graphic design is definitely increasing, and the view upon it is transforming more inclusively. The entry barrier is next to nothing, and people are ready to work with new talents. From huge public institutions to nameless alternative spaces, there are more clients than ever in Seoul who seriously need graphic design, especially in the last few years. I know that many of the designers who have collaborated with those clients were low-paid, but in return, they can promote their activities throughout the autonomous design practice. I think the notion of the importance of graphic design in the curation scene was crucial for this phenomenon.
IOWhy is this the case?
KKYoung Korean curators seek out “young” graphics designers to whom they can actually attune themselves. That is because they no longer want to work with the established design firms (the so-called Design Agencies), who tend to charge overly expensive fees and tend not to seek newness or crave originality. In my opinion, the curators seem to know that young, emerging graphic designers can be a great partner to introduce artists and promote their work. It’s only been 5 years or so, but we’re undergoing a generational shift at a rattling pace.
IOWhat about Korean pride? Are Koreans proud people?
KKPersonally I have a strong aversion to nationalism or collectivism, so I actually don’t have any pride whatsoever as a Korean. Korea is a dynamic society in terms of politics. Of course, I am proud as a human being for the democratization that people attained by themselves a few decades ago, but not necessarily as a Korean.
IOWhat are the typical characteristics of Korean mentality?
KKGenerally speaking, collectivism—as the opposite of individualism—is relatively dominant in Korea, which surely comes from historical experiences. It is such a small land with lots of people, so its overpopulation also causes “over-socialization”, a typical Korean mentality. What is clear is that people here care too much about what others think and tend not to go against others’ expectations. The Korean War, a tragedy of the Cold War, also still affects the people. Korean society is still not quite flexible ideologically.
IOWhat aspects of Korean culture could be a role model for others?
KKA few months ago, a Japanese bookseller told me that it takes Japanese people a lot of time and consideration to figure out how to open up a single bookstore, which often distresses them or makes it difficult for them to even start out, but it seems like Koreans open a bookstore first and start to think later. I guess this is a positive aspect of Korean culture—being able to adapt themselves to new things with ease, and being quite bold and adventurous in performing their work. Maybe GRAPHIC is one of the byproducts of this culture. If I had considered for too long, I would never have been able to start at all.
IONext to Korean culture, what other cultures are important for South Korean society?
KKAs a teenager, I was flooded with American culture: Clint Eastwood, Dustin Hoffman, Bob Dylan, Jimi Hendrix, etc. After getting out of school, I worked at an advertising agency for about 10 years. In this time, I was strongly influenced by Japanese culture. I used to eat sushi for dinner, then go to an izakaya for a drink, and stop by karaoke for entertainment. Being swept away with American culture was a global thing, but everyday life in Korea has been soaked in Japanese culture since the 80s.
Introducing the person
IOWhat is the most touching, most beautiful thing you’ve ever seen?
KKI was 11, a 5th grader maybe, when I saw the ocean for the first time. The horizon was blurry with fog and mist. It was just too vast.
IODoes beauty play an important role in your life?
KKFor me, beauty means “purity”, which is simple, clear, and not polluted. I am drawn by it, especially because I am neither pure nor able to be pure.
IOWhat topics or ideas are you fascinated by at the moment?
KKSometimes I imagine myself 10 years from now, as an old man in my mid-60s, working on some chimerical projects. I am somehow thrilled to be an old man who challenges the system, the mainstream, and conventions. The idea not to adapt myself to the given system is very important for me, and gives me a reason to live.
IOWhat do you expect from life?
KKTo be honest, I would maybe like to gain some kind of an honour—not a kind of mondaine social recognition, but something eccentric and impertinent. I am becoming more and more like that.
IOWhat does life expect from you in South Korea?
KKI am a magazine editor, a husband, a father, and a son of a single mother as well. My life constantly requires “responsibility”. I should be responsible for a magazine, a publishing house, and a family. I feel a lot of pressure, but it is something that I am willing to accept. Except for taking the responsibility for my family, I think I do pretty well. Fortunately, my family doesn’t care that much about me…(Laughs)
IOWhat was your dream career as a child?
KKWhen I was a kid, I remember a fortuneteller telling me, “You will become a soldier and succeed as one”. My father was a retired officer and looking at his picture on the battleground, it somehow made me sad, but the soldier’s world also seemed quite fascinating. I liked the idea that soldiers runs up and down mountains defending themselves, but I also once thought about the agony and the loneliness that a soldier would have. I don’t know why.
IOWhy did you become a publisher in the end?
KKMaybe because I thought it was better to fight for my ideas as a publisher than for my country as a soldier. Through publishing I can gather intriguing people and introduce their ideas, visions, and attitudes to Korean society. What is good about publishing is that it is not a game of capital, but a game of thoughts and ideas. You can make a small universe with trivial yet interesting stories. This is the charm of publishing.
Working life
IOWhat’s your typical work day like?
KKI start at the office at 10 in the morning and finish at midnight. This means I spend more than 10 hours a day in the office, plus weekends are not an exception. It is not necessary to do so but it kind of became a habit or lifestyle. The GRAPHIC magazine consumes about 30% of my time; the rest is for publishing other books. Most of the day, I stay in the office doing editorial work, but sometimes I also visit the printing houses or galleries.
IOWhen putting together an issue of GRAPHIC magazine, how does your idea finding process work?
KKIt’s an ongoing process of constant research and exchanging ideas regularly with collaborators. It has become more like a routine rather than preparing for a certain issue of GRAPHIC. We try to spot an uncommonness that can stimulate the readers at the same time. I prefer a subject that can be small in itself but naturally speak to a bigger concept, than a greater subject from the beginning.
IOWhat are the compromise you have to make as a publisher?
KKThat I have to deal with limited resources, which means limited budget and manpower. It is quite a realistic problem. However, I don’t have to compromise in terms of themes or ideas. That’s because we are a small team, which allows our projects to keep some distance from commerciality.
IOWho do you get your feedback from?
KKI don’t trust individual feedback so much. People tend not to be harsh face to face, so I prefer feedback via social media.
Attitude
IOMin Choi said that you are a walking encyclopedia for graphic design. Why are you so fascinated by graphic design?
KKI guess I’m more fascinated by the magazine as a dynamic yet intense means of communication. Obviously, graphic design plays a big role for this type of publication. For this reason, when I was an editor at a film magazine, I wanted to deepen my knowledge about the fundaments of magazine and graphic communication. And that’s why I started GRAPHIC magazine. Graphic design seems very dependent on the individual talent of a graphic designer rather than relying on its system. That is to say, graphic design is a world of human scale, which fascinates me the most.
IODo you need to be educated to understand graphic design?
KKI am one of the ones concerned about the over-elitisized part in graphic design. I think graphic design should be more democratized. Design should consider the people who are uneducated and be able to mediate to a broader public.
IOWhat are the qualities of a good graphic designer in your opinion?
KKAny design that is understandable, without fallacy in delivering information, and looks good. I would consider it great if its method or style is also original and breaks conventions.
IOWhat’s more important for you, the design product or the process?
KKThe product. But I mean the printed content, not primarily the magazine as an object. The content should be the center of attention when handling the object. That’s why I like when the design helps structure and enhance the content.
IOAre there any meta themes that South Korean graphic designers are busy with?
KKI would say “independence”. The old generation of graphic designers was rather passive and felt comfortable within the hierarchies and structures of Korean society. But the younger generation questions these structures and strives for more independence. The younger generation wants to express their thoughts in order to actively contribute and change society. So, next to designing, they’re starting to become authors, generate their own contents, and open independent businesses and small publishing houses.
IOWhat is the most hypocritical thing that a designer can say?
KK(Laughs) That design is not important.
IOWhat is the most hypocritical thing that a publisher can say?
KK(Laughs) That she or he doesn’t care about money.
IOCan graphic design change society?
KKProbably. I’d like to postulate the possibility to change the society as a broader concept. These days “change” means not as much transformation as before, but as stated earlier, graphic design helps the younger generation to develop a voice in society.
IOIf you were a dictator in the world of graphic design, what ideas would you insist on?
KKI really dislike some of the old design “authorities”—designers who built up a sacrosanct position in the scene. I would like to make them reside in a senior citizens center (Laughs).
IOHave you ever lost your beliefs?
KKFortunately not. Having a strong publishing concept and being flexible as a small publishing house keeps me on track and allows me to take inspiring detours and healthy sidesteps.
Editor in chief of IDEA magazine, a Tokyo-based publication focused on graphic design and typography. http://www.idea-mag.com/en/
Ingo OffermannsIOmet Kiyonori MurogaKMat the magazine’s office in Tokyo, Japan.
Introducing the cultural context
IOWhat’s the most inspiring place for you in Tokyo?
KMProbably Kanda Jinbocho, the neighborhood of antiquarian bookshops. It’s maybe five minute walk from here, and they have nice booksellers specialized in various fields.
IOWhat about Tokyo in general? Is it a good place to live?
KMActually, I don’t think so. It’s too dense and complex to really feel comfortable. It’s also a difficult place to bring up children, especially with less support from the local community.
IOHow about from a professional perspective? Is Tokyo a good place for graphic design?
KMWith regards to the number of companies and cultural institutions, one could say that it is a convenient city for graphic designers, but nowadays more designers move outside of the city, making use of lower living costs. Internet makes this possible.
IOWhere does Tokyo’s graphic design scene meet and exchange ideas? Is there a place like the Book Society in Seoul?
KMThere are many bookshops and galleries that host events, but there isn’t a central one for graphic designers. Their communities are diverse. Also, younger generations are less association-oriented than the former ones. There are still gallery spaces, like ggg and G8, run by big companies that exhibit graphic design. These places have a long and influential tradition from the 80s. But their raison d'être is changing, partly due to the shifting position of graphic design in our society, and the retirement of the former leading designers. So, there is less and less of a connection between the designers, the companies, and in the end—the public.
IOIs it difficult to survive as a graphic designer in Japan?
KMYes. One of the most important reasons for this, I think, is the large number of colleges and the resulting large number of graduates. During the past decades design was one of the most popular studies among young people, but there are too many graphic designers in Japan today and less social respect. As a result, wage dumping happens easily. This has a lot to do with a lack of mediation from the designers part, but also with a conventional public understanding of designers as mere craftsmen or mechanical workers.
IOI’m fascinated by the Japanese approach to modernity. It’s seems balanced and extreme at the same time.
KMI think Japanese people are very much obsessed with questioning themselves, because our entire culture was questioned when western modernity forced its way into our society about one hundred and fifty years ago. It’s a difficult mindset, because it oscillates between two poles—east and west. The clash of “Sakoku”—the hermetic Japanese tradition that lasted form the 17th until the 19th century—and western modernity in the middle of the 19th century still echoes in our minds and culture, making us open for experiments and extremes, but also unstable.
IOSpeaking of aesthetic notions in Japan, I get the impression that beauty is something European.
KMIn the course of modernizing and westernizing Japanese culture, we also adopted aesthetic notions. But in the end, platonic ideas do not really correspond well with the Japanese mentality. Japanese people think more in terms of configurations.
IOAfter being in Japan for a few days, I also have the feeling that I’m in the most modern country I’ve ever been to. Is Japanese society as modern as the cities it has built?
KMI don’t think so. Notions like true democracy and human rights are rarely understood here. It’s not that Japan is less individualistic than other industrialized nation, but the pre-modern structure of classes and stakeholder groups still echoes throughout our society and mindset.
IOWhat other characteristics do you associate with the Japanese mentality?
KMThis is a great deal of pressure to conform, and the sense of discipline provides order in Japanese society.
IOWhat aspects of the Japanese mentality could other cultures learn from?
KMOur mentality is rooted in or at least very much influenced by the Japanese language and writing system. Our writing system uses Chinese pictograph-based characters and combines them with phonetic letters. It’s complex in structure and use, but there is also a philosophical and aesthetic logic born from it, related to principles of composition and beauty, which you can find in Japanese architecture and painting for example, as well.
Introducing the person
IOWhat’s the most beautiful thing you have ever seen?
KMMost recently, I would say my baby. There’s also the town where I grew up, covered in snow at night in the moonlight. This image of beauty really became part of my basic memory.
IOHow do you stay alert for the little miracles of everyday life?
KMI like observing situations. In the train, at a crossing, you can see weird, funny, absurd, or simply beautiful encounters. To me, it sometimes feels like theatrical theory.
IOWhat ideas do you find particularly interesting or fascinating at the moment?
KMAs an editor, my interests vary and are mostly related to the magazine issues that I work on. Currently I’m focusing on the graphics for the upcoming Olympic Games in Tokyo and the question of how core aspects of Japanese culture can be visualized graphically. But the base of my interest is still Western design aesthetics and how these interact with Japanese culture.
IOWhat do you expect from life?
KMI don’t expect anything concrete from life. I just want to make good use of this fragile moment that I call my life.
IOAnd what does life in Japan expect from you?
KMThere’s this cliché saying in Japan: a protruding nail must be hammered down. As I said earlier, Japanese society is not less individualistic than other industrialized nations. The mechanisms of the market and consumption are responsible for this. But there is still an appreciation for discipline, solidarity, and social control.
IOWhat was your dream career as a child? Did you always want to become a publisher?
KMI actually wanted to become a cartoonist—a manga artist. But I never achieved a level that I was happy with. At that time, I read an autobiographical manga by the comic artist duo Fujiko Fujio, and I was struck by their hand-drawn zines, which were distributed via a circle of friends. I loved this energy, and it later pushed me to become involved in publishing. Working life
IOCould you describe your typical work day?
KMThere’s nothing special about my work day routine. I get up around 6 in the morning, bring my child to kindergarden, and take a 40 minute train ride to my office. I’m not so good at managing a schedule, but I always start doing bureaucratic paper work (there is quite a bit in Japan) and answering emails. Only after that can I start doing editorial work. I end my days at about 7 or 8 in the evening, go to my favorite bar for one or two drinks, and go home. Besides publishing, I sometimes teach or I contribute texts for exhibition catalogues. And since this is not company work, I have to do this during my vacation time.
IOIs working in the design field a dream job for you?
KMNot really, because somehow I got involved in the design field by chance. Someone passed the ball to me, and I accepted it. The job is literally a “calling”. I have to pass it down to the next, making a chain. I take it temporarily, but seriously.
IOIn respect to your outstanding achievements in the field of graphic design, this feels like an understatement to me.
KMAs I said, every step I take, I take seriously. I do regard graphic culture as a fundamental human activity—a basic form of human interaction. And I’m certainly not just talking about printmaking, but about any form of visual coding, like signs, traces, and so on. My interest lies in the cultural scale of graphics, more than professional graphic design.
IOIs this the reason it’s important to you to publish a magazine about graphic design?
KMI’m running the magazine in the first place, because it’s my job. But so far, we’ve managed to publish some issues that were worthwhile publishing. I definitely like the idea that by making a magazine like IDEA, you can publish something culturally critical.
IOWhen putting together a new issue, how does your idea finding process work? How do you choose the work that you want to show?
KMIt’s a chain reaction. One is evolving out of another.
IODoes hierarchy play a role in your work as publisher?
KMWithin my publishing team, everything happens more or less on eye level. There are certainly different fields of responsibility, but the work flow is based on open-mindedness. It was different in the first decades of the magazine. IDEA started in 1953, and it was deeply connected to the hierarchy of the graphic masters’ community. The magazine would publish the best protagonists and outcomes of their competition. But after a while, this hierarchy produced some kind of routine that I didn’t like. So, when I joined the office, I tried to push for more of a punk, rebel spirit. I tried to free the magazine from this competitive hierarchy related to the graphic industry, and I pushed for creating a platform for discourse.
IOWhat are the most exciting and the most annoying moments in your work as an editor?
KMDeveloping ideas and collaborating with contributors and staff are the best parts of my job. Negotiation with the publisher and endless communication via email are probably the most stressful parts of the job. I also have to admit that I’m not too fond of writing. But since there are not a lot of writers in this industry, I’m frequently pushed to do so.
IOWhat are the compromises that you have to make as an editor?
KMCompromises are always about time and cost. On the other hand, if I didn’t have deadlines, I wouldn’t finish anything…
IOWho do you get your feedback from?
KMPrimarily from my colleagues or the designers who I often drink with. But I also get feedback from events that we organize, and nowadays we also get a lot of comments via social media.
Attitude
IOHow important is the magazine as an artifact, an object to you?
KMTwenty years ago, the magazine followed a basic editorial and production structure. There were neither editorial nor printing specialties applied. Around the millennium, the former chief put more stress on the magazine as an object. We wanted to introduce the same attitude of the published works into the design of the magazine itself. But this object driven approach got a little out of control, so we tried to find a better balance between ambitious content and ambitious design.
IOWhat are the qualities of a good graphic designer?
KMIn my opinion, a good designer should have a sense for language. If a designer can write good texts, he or she is most likely a good designer.
IONext to the challenges of a specific design job, there is sometimes an aesthetic meta discourse going on in the design community, which also influences daily design actions. In Europe notions like participation or generative design are part of this meta discourse. What about such a discourse in Japan?
KMThe first generations of graphic designers in Japan were busy establishing modern graphic design as a profession. They helped to build the graphic industry and import design knowledge from Europe and the USA. Their self-conception was comparable to an ingenious artist. Professor Sugiura Kohei, who is perhaps the exclusive figure of the post-war generation, developed this industry further. He questioned the western design traditions, rediscovered Japanese and East Asian design traditions, and tried to develop an open-minded but specific Asian design approach. This came along with a more scientific conception of graphic design. Nowadays, young graphic designers are still dealing with questions of cultural identity in a globalized world, but they also have to struggle with a culturally and economically fragmented Japanese society. One of the meta topics is also redefining graphic design in this constantly changing society. Meanwhile, there are always fashion-driven discourses around contemporary concepts imported from the West.
IOWould you say that there is a specific contemporary Japanese design approach?
KMThere is indeed a movement towards a more organic, loose, and handmade type of graphic design that makes less use of grids and “mechanical” logic. This has to do with Japanese design traditions, which are rooted in calligraphy and the rather loose structure of Japanese language. But this trend is freely and unconsciously generated—not from concrete thinking.
IOThinking about identity in times of late capitalism, I sometimes wonder whether cultural identity is just another resource that is being exploited by industry to create and sell something supposedly new / different / individual?
KMFirst, I have to say that I have serious doubts about the notion of “creation” in this context. Art and applied art is about mixing and connecting things based on predecessors’ work. But you’re indeed pointing at something problematic. In pre-modern times, and even up to the end of the 20th century, identity was connected to classes or grown social contexts. This identity could also combine contradictory elements and it was extended and colored by the individuals within the context. Late capitalism with it’s market principles fragmented and flattened this. Social contexts became more or less liquid peer groups and identity is reduced to its basic idea: difference. But this difference doesn’t imply complexity or contradiction anymore. It becomes as clean, simple, and logic as brand identities should be. And identity and individuality become somehow synonyms. Maybe this simplicity and shallowness, which doesn’t connect to human needs, makes people long for something deeper and more complex again. But after all…“cultural identity” is an invention by capitalism that adheres to the concept of the nation-state.
IOWould you say that graphic design is dealing more with the symptoms of communication than with its causes?
KMGraphic design is a very intermediate thing. It only exists between the sender and recipient. In my opinion, it touches both the symptoms and the causes.
IOLast question: What would you do if you were the dictator of the graphic design world?
KMMaybe I would build a school to teach design history for designers and design for the general public.
Kelvin Wong is a Bangkok-based graphic designer. Half Thai, half Malaysian, he spent two years living and working in London as a freelancer to experience European design and society. He set up his own design practice – K Kelvin – after he returned to Bangkok.
The interview took place in January 2016. Ingo Offermanns IOmet with K.Kelvin KK in Bangkok, Thailand.
IO Kelvin, I suggested meeting at one of the places in Bangkok that you consider the most inspiring, and you brought us to Sampheng Market. Why is this place inspiring for you?
KK Sampheng is a historic neighbourhood and market in Bangkok’s Chinatown. It was settled during the Rattanakosin period by the Teochew Chinese. Therefore, it was one of the places that my mother used to take me when I was young to shop for the same kinds of things. You can find almost anything and everything here. Ever since then, I’ve always been attracted to the energy of Sampheng. The hustle and bustle of the market. The density and complexity of the things being sold here. There’s chaos and harmony plus sophistication, mixed with a tinge of brashness. But somehow everything and everyone interacts with a sense of ease.
IO Let me enlarge the scale. What about Bangkok in general? Is it a good place to live and work?
KK When my family eventually moved to Bangkok, we didn’t have a specific plan, but somehow Bangkok warmly received us with open arms. It was like walking through a neighbourhood, loving the atmosphere, with the whole community extending an invitation for you to live and work there and achieve a good life. In spite of being half Thai and half Malaysian with limited Thai language skills, Bangkok has enriched me. I haven’t felt any barriers or discrimination. In fact, I received the opposite: great friendship and warm kindness.
IO That sounds beautiful. Is this what you expect from life?
KK (laughs) I do have expectations of how I should live my life but not a seriously high benchmark. Maybe it’s due to the Buddhist belief: Do good and good will come back to you. In spite of being ambitious, I think that the Thais are not so stressed or highly-strung about achieving perfection. I honestly do want my design studio to be one of the best in Bangkok, but I wouldn’t step over others to achieve it. I’m absolutely convinced that if I do an exceptional job, if I am nice and kind to the clients, the studio will flourish by itself.
IO If I understand you correctly, you are saying, that Thai people are rather relaxed, pragmatic, and liberal. But are they also proud?
KK I believe that the Thais are very proud of their cultural heritage and the fact that this nation was never conquered by any colonial power or country. Therefore, as a Thai you don’t need to rediscover or redefine yourself. With a rich cultural heritage, you can and do just forge ahead to inspire people with new ideas and innovations. You are like a sponge, interacting without any boundaries or fear of losing one’s own identity.
IO Which of your cultural values could serve as a model for others?
KK “Sabai” or “Sabai, Sabai” (we normally say it twice to intensify its meaning) which means, Happy, or comfortable, or in a relaxed manner. For instance, if it rains today, not to worry, tomorrow, the sun will shine again.
IO Looking at your graphic design work, I can see quite a few references to Western pop culture. What cultures influenced you apart from Thai culture?
KK As I am half Thai, half Malaysian, growing up in Malaysia gave me that slight British influence. I studied in an all-boys Catholic/British educational system and was heavily into the British New Wave pop music of the 80s, especially Joy Division/New Order, Depeche Mode and the Pet Shop Boys. Album covers were my first introduction to design, and so I’m quite influenced by them. I studied graphic design for a year at Andrews University in Michigan but somehow felt that it was the wrong place for me. So when I returned to Bangkok for a holiday, I decided to quit school, and I started my design career by learning the hands-on basics of graphic design. From layouts to paste-ups to letter setting type etc. After about 10 years of working with Leo Burnett, Bakery Music and Propaganda, I decided that it was time to take a break and finally visit London. I sold all my belongings and went to live in London for two years. I didn’t want to go there to work in design. Instead, I wanted to experience firsthand how design works in society, how it interacts and influences society. I would stroll through all the corners of the city, to all the galleries, museums, and design events. I also went to as many concerts as I could afford, and I did also certainly visit a lot of the prominent design studios too. One of the highlights was visiting my hero Peter Saville. I had the chance to talk to him about design and his philosophy for more than three hours. You can imagine what an eye-opener that was for me! Two years later, I came back to Bangkok, and at the encouragement of my friend Pod from the rock band Moderndog, I opened my studio, K Kelvin (K as in Khun (engl.: Mr.) as I’m often referred to as Khun Kelvin.)
IO It seems that you can make quite a lot of money from graphic design, if you can spend two years in London without working, right?
KK I sold all my belongings to afford that experience, and I did freelancing commissions to survive. Plus sharing and renting a flat with 3 others, and living with minimum wants and needs. But seriously, you can earn a decent living as graphic designer in Bangkok, if you work hard and have a disciplined working ethic.
IO One more question about cultural influences. In spite of post-colonial studies in the Western world, I have the impression that Western culture is still exported to the rest of the world in a kind of patronizing way. Don’t you guys get bored with the omnipresence of Western culture and aesthetics?
KK That’s a good question. But, honestly, although Western culture is omnipresent here in Bangkok, it influences us only to a certain degree. There is still the daily presence of everyday Thai culture. Sabai-sabai, or the Wai (Thai greeting) is an act of respect and gratitude, very Asian. These are just some of the parts of our Asian culture that subconsciously drive us daily. Therefore, Western cultures will always interest us because of their fresh point of view, good and bad. (laughs) We generally approach foreign cultures as friends, but we are not particularly biased in favour of any one of them. So we take influences and mix them with our own background. We don’t really follow strict or rigid concepts. We are not so orthodox about these things––and maybe we are not so serious about ourselves in general. I presume that this also has to do with Buddhism, which teaches us not to hold on to things too rigidly. Therefore, we don’t need to be as politically correct as the Western world. (laughs) That’s why we don’t take ourselves too seriously and can make fun of fat people in our TV commercials.
Introducing the person
IO Could you describe your routine on a typical working day?
KK We are a projects-based design studio. What that means is that our studio has 4 designers, including me, working on assigned projects as a team, but we do not work a typical 9 to 5, Monday to Friday routine. The studio only serves as a hub to finish up or formulate ideas/projects. We all work remotely, and have a timeline and schedule of each project from start to finish.
IO What would you do on weekends or holidays?
KK Try not to think about design, but it doesn’t work that way. If there’s a long weekend, we usually go to the beach.
Working Life
IO About your work. How do your clients see your designs? Do you have any special qualities that help you to get the job?
KK We listen a lot to the clients. We are design communicators, and so we hope to get the project done well as a collaborative effort with the client. We believe that a happy client makes a happy job and a happy job makes a designer happy.
IO It is so enjoyable and a pleasure to have a close relationship with clients and eventually to become friends, I see this as the style of your studio too, but what about style in graphic design? Do you have a certain kind of graphic design style?
KK We like clean, straightforward, and simple designs. We don’t overdo anything, so I would say there is no particular style in our graphic design. We like systems, though. When we work on designing identities or branding products/services, we usually employ either grids or templates. We see systems as the backbone of a design supported by the overall concept.
IO So you would say a system governs everything in the design? How does this play a role in your work?
KK It’s not really like that. Instead of it being the golden rule, the system serves as a road map for our clients to see the brand’s design direction. How a consistent system of grids, layout and typography frames the language that the brand communicates to the end user. It is a frame of reference to illustrate the concept and the message.
IO What do you see as crucial in graphic design?
KK Not to be wasteful. In terms of superfluous design or ideas that pollute the environment and do not benefit society in general.
IO Are hierarchies important in your work and collaborations?
KK No, we believe in the designer and client round-table collaborative spirit where ideas are heard, targets met, and budgets projected.
Attitude
IO Are there rituals to the design process?
KK I cannot work in silence. Therefore, I always have to have music on while I work.
IO What would be the process of finding ideas at work?
KK It usually happens during our conversation with the client. I often have the idea as the client explains the significance of the product in hand. The whats and whys that drive the product to exist in society. As a graphic designer, I believe we have the gift of communicating/turning intangible ideas into concrete words and symbols. So, while I’m listening to the clients, those images just playfully form in my mind.
IO And how do you work out the ideas?
KK The process is a mixture of instinct and rationality. Most of the time, instinct then reason, and sometimes the reverse. But I believe that if we train our brains to store maximum useful information, when the time comes the brain will subconsciously make these new connections and ideas.
IO You said you work closely with your clients and have a good relationship with them. Have you ever got into a fight? What do you have to fight about?
KK We value quality and context highly. If the context is right, the quality has to be right as well. We have a responsibility to the end user and to the environment. So the fight is for the product to have a good reason to exist in society. Therefore, a good product contributes to a good society and is good for the environment.
IO Have you ever backed off totally and quit?
KK We have been lucky thus far and seldom have any misunderstandings with our clients. If there’s an air of trust and honesty at the first meeting, it’s usually a good collaborative process from then on. Or if we feel that it would be an unsuitable fit, we usually decline politely.
IO Who do you get your feedback from? Why do you think feedback is important?
KK We often ask for feedback from our clients or directly from the end user. It’s important to that we can understand the different points of view or perspectives of others who see the product or brand differently to oneself. It helps us improve and understand more on how we can communicate effectively. For example, we designed a logo for Panyaden International School in Chiang Mai. The students, who are 6 to 7 years old, told us how they loved their school’s logo and that it truly represented them. We were absolutely happy because they saw the idea behind it and gave positive and insightful feedback. We believe that good design should be like a good song that touches your heart and makes you happy.
IO That is so wonderful and a nice way to put it. What would you recognize as the meta-theme of your work?
KK Happy design. A good product or brand that is kind to the earth and good for society. And waste avoidance. We try very hard not to waste design - that is, to deliver a product that is not overtly designed. If we can use less ink, less paper or less of any materials, we will do so, and we will also advise the client against this. We try hard to avoid making things which are overpriced, expensive, and inefficient.
IO You say you explore the possibilities of graphic design as a catalyst for progress, which is a prime European idea. My belief is that Europe’s progress mentality is a line, whereas Asia’s way of thinking is a circle. What does progress mean for you? Does it relate to notions like “modern” and “new”?
KK I would define progress in design as pushing an idea or concept in an international context, being seen or heard on an equal footing within the same industry, whether in business or design. The possibility of polishing a design or an idea to make it better. Not something super-innovative or related to any technological advancement, more as an advancement of a simple idea but with an extraordinary ripple effect.
IO In terms of collaborative design, what is more important to you? The design process or the design product?
KK Both. I believe both the process and the product are important. Good process leads to good products. A bad process will most certainly lead to a bad product.
IO What do you consider to be the most hypocritical thing a designer can say?
KK “Design, it's been designed.” I think that the term “design” has been used too often and has become a cliché. Good design speaks for itself.
IO Is graphic design important?
KK Yes. A good idea, communicated effectively, can change and make lives better.
IO Do you think graphic design should have an influence on society? You mentioned the environmental aspects. Sometimes, instead of thinking seriously how graphic design might help with this, a person might just blow up the importance of what they do. How would you judge the prospects for graphic design changing the society?
KK Yes, I believe that graphic design should have an influence in society. In the case of Bangkok in particular, we need to make a big impact, and also minute changes in society. An example of a big impact would be the public transportation system. If we had a designed system like the ones for the London Underground or New York subway, it would be a great benefit to society. Or a minute design like our Thai identity cards or passports. A little sprinkle of the Swiss design influence would be nice.
IO Do you think simplicity, like clean, clear design, is ideal because it supports enlightenment?
KK Nature is simple, so I believe simple designs, communicated effectively, can be very powerful and meaningful in society.
IO What would you do if you were the dictator of the graphic design world?
KK Try not to be wasteful. To never design something that people will pick up and throw away immediately.
IO I am so glad that you have such a strong connection to pop music. For my last question, let me quote R.E.M.: “Have you ever lost your religion?”KK: In design, as a studio, we are not searching for perfection but instead for a happy outcome. Do the best you can with the given time. We try to convey this attitude in our work and to just move on, even if the solution isn’t perfect. In this sense, I would say that my religion changes every day.
Shin Shin (Haeok Shin+Donghyeok Shin) Haeok Shin and Donghyeok Shin are Shin Shin, a graphic design studio based in Seoul, Korea. They both studied at Dankook University, and they have worked together in the fields of art and culture, collaborating in partnership with curators, editors, artists, and institutions since 2008. They are continuing with self-initiated projects whilst participating in various exhibitions. Haeok is currently an MFA candidate at the Yale School of Art and Donghyeok teaches Graphic Design at the University of Seoul.
Ingo Offermanns IO met with Shin Shin SH in Gyeonggi-do, South Korea. The interview took place in January 2016 (revised in 2018).
Cultural context
IO Why do you like working in Seoul?
SH We like Seoul because it is a rather “messy” place where everything mixes, the old and new, native and pop culture, the local and international perspective. It is the same with the graphic design scene here, always diversified. We love diversity, it is in our culture and keeps us inspired.
IO Is Seoul or South Korea in general a good place for graphic designers?
SH There are many opportunities in Seoul for graphic designers. You can get a job easily after graduation as there are still not many designers working in the city. There are also downsides such as many low-paying, overworked, and small-scale jobs, but on the other hand there are spaces for experiment and plenty of chances to collaborate with artists, creators, and musicians. It is always a struggle between money and interesting jobs.
IO How do the young graphic designers make a living for underpaid jobs? Do they also work on commercial work?
SH Moneywise, conditions are harsh. Young designers find themselves in a period of investment. They have to work hard to build up their own practice. When we were undergraduate students, we formed a small graphic design group at the school. We spent most of our time working together, holding exhibitions and seminars in order to get feedback from our professors and to connect with people as much as possible. We believe in making good relationships with the people we are in touch with. Some of them could be our future clients.
IO Compared with Europe, Korean society has experienced a rapid change over the past 20-30 years. Do you think these changes, from a traditional to a modern life caused frictions and problems in society? Is the society torn between the past and modern times?
SH The effects of these rapid changes are deeply rooted in our culture. There are always conflicts between the older and younger generations, because people in their teens, 20s and 30s grew up and were educated in totally different contexts. We share contrasting ways of living, values, and attitudes. In government, most of the decision-makers and policy-makers belong to the older generation, who are not aware of the needs of youth. Conflict mainly comes from social policies and the ways resources are spent in society. The younger generation in Seoul is not wealthy. They cannot afford to buy a flat or house because of high rent, and they earn less as a result. Instead of housing, they wish to achieve a better quality of life by spending money on “cool” stuff, like art, pop culture, and design, which the government doesn’t pay much attention to. This explains why the younger generation loves visiting art book fairs and spends a lot of money on books and posters, affordable and fulfilling expenditures.
IO Do you think the Koreans are proud people?
SH It depends on the person, but for us as citizens, we’re not proud to be citizens. We are not satisfied with our government, especially its social policies which are not in favour of family building, and which make it harder for the younger generation to raise children. On the cultural side, we are fortunate to be Korean in our time. Compared to other countries, we are used to being exposed to foreign and multicultural aspects of life. This also applies to graphic design. We are not bound by tradition or style, but instead are very open to diversity. We think that multinational culture, flexibility, and lack of strong originality are something we are proud of.
IO Haeok, a question for you: as a female graphic designer, do you think you receive as much respect as male graphic designers?
SH The whole of society is still highly hierarchical and male-dominated. In general, many design studios and agencies have a high workload, and this situation of too much work causes questions to be asked concerning whether female designers can cope with the pressure or not, which is fundamentally preposterous. I experienced these inequalities even when I was studying as an undergraduate student. I've witnessed many female senior designers leaving their job due to a change in their personal situations, such as getting married or becoming pregnant, and I've never seen this happen to a man. I also quit working in an agency by using marriage as an excuse. It was true that I had got married, but it was not the reason I left the agency. I thought it might be easier to make the boss understand my decision that way, and I really regret saying that at that time. I've heard that I am a tough and relentless woman who always works hard, rather than being given recognition for my talent.
One of my colleagues, who is a woman and younger than me, also said something similar to me: that she was not sure if she could work as hard as I am, which is a pity. Yes, I work hard, but that's just part of my character. However, now that many women designers have affirmed and encouraged their accomplishments from within a social structure that is disadvantageous to women, Korea is progressing, and will progress more in the future. We've started attempting to shift the balance towards better conditions for ourselves. These are hopeful signs for me.
Introducing the person
IO What is the most beautiful thing that you have ever seen?
SH We like many things. Beautiful books are one of those things. If we spend a lot of money on them, it becomes a problem (laughs). There are also art works we cannot take our eyes off. We find beautiful things are something that we cannot make and we admire. Like this oil painting created by the Korean artist Yunsung Lee. We bought it because we couldn’t stand not having it, even though we don’t have much money, but we try to collect what we can pay for.
IO How do you stay sharp and sensible at work?
SH We are husband and wife, but we are critical of each other at work. We are honest in giving comments, even though it might be harsh sometimes. This is the best way to stay alert and sharp. We believe telling the truth doesn’t hurt. It is a long-time practice of ours. We have done it since we started working together, which was more than eight years ago.
IO In design, what theme or approach are you particularly interested in?
SH We grew up watching Japanese anime and we are therefore fascinated by this translated culture. This inspired us to put this concept into graphic design. In 2015, we participated in Typojanchi—the typography biennial in Seoul—in which we contributed to an exhibition called “Asia City Texture” curated by Japanese designer Tetsyua Goto. He asked each participant to take 60 photos in their home city. We presented Seoul by taking photos of signboards of various shops with a name of a foreign city, for example, a pub named “Copenhagen”, a dental clinic named “Chicago” and a bar named “Munich.” Some names really had a connection to the city whilst others did not, but this kind of “translated” and “multinational” culture does indeed exist within Seoul. We also carried out some self-initiated projects using machine translation. In 2010, starting with the novel Frankenstein, we Google-Translated it into different languages and then back into Korean, and, finally, we created a book. The translated text was destroyed and had no meaning at all. The experiment was so inspiring that we took the concept into our later projects, which are not limited to the language itself, but extend to diversity in different forms across different mediums.
IO What do you expect from life?
SH Those of us living in Korea expect a better quality of life and safety in our country. As graphic designers, we wish to set up better roles and connections for the future generations.
IO Besides graphic design, what other disciplines or things are important to you?
SH Music, art, and social life are all very important to us. They take us to other areas, so that we do not stand still in graphic design. Sometimes designers who are staying together will naturally just talk about jobs, printing, and clients endlessly (laughs).
Working life
IO Do you think graphic design is a dream job?
SH We are freelance designers and do not belong to any company. We can work freely and control our time in a really flexible way. Of course the cost of freedom is discipline. We need to make sure everything is done properly.
IO Could you describe your typical daily routine?
SH We start work at 6 pm in the evening, because we don’t live in Seoul, and so during the daytime we drive to the city for meetings, to follow productions, catch up with friends, and visit some exhibitions. After this, we start work, carrying on until late. Then we usually go to bed at 3 or even 4 am!
IO What do you do when you are on holiday?
SH We don’t have a concept of “holiday”. We can work every day or we can go for a vacation anytime when we are free. When we travel, we are keen on making new friends and meeting people. We treasure connections and communication a lot. It creates something unexpected.
IO Why do you think clients pick you as a designer?
SH We think being able to generate content and to deeply involve and express our point of view makes us reliable and makes people happy to work with us. We don’t just give art direction, sometimes we edit content as well. Bringing text into graphic design together with our clients is an enjoyable process. We work with the same clients again and again. We know each other well, and this also helps the development. On those occasions when we are not involved in the editing, we still try to deliver something different from pure graphic design.
Attitude
IO Are there any rituals associated with your design process?
SH The only ritual we have is never to start working in front of the computer before we have made the decisions. It is a waste of time trying this without thinking properly. We usually spend time discussing concepts at a restaurant or café, or during the time when we go for walk. The conceptual part is crucial and fundamental, and we never work together in graphic design. We always work on different areas, and we finish the project individually. We only work together on artistic projects.
IO What are the most exciting and the most annoying moments in the design process?
SH Production. Before we met our current printer, who is very reliable and easy to work with, we were frustrated by all production problems, like achieving accurate colours across different media, tackling the differences between our expectations and actual results…… We spent a lot of time and effort fixing messes. The most exciting moment is of course the discussion stage of the project.
IO How about compromises? Do you compromise at work?
SH We take different approaches depending on the client and the job. We usually do not give in easily, especially when we think the decision is crucial for the project. In tough situations, we will try our best to convey our ideas and get a lot of advice from our clients, opening up space for discussion and in order to see what we can do. We have a good understanding with our clients, since we have a long working relationship with them.
IO Design process or design product? Which one is more important?
SH It would be ridiculous to answer that, but we believe it is important to think about how to lead the design process to the production stage. As Ludwig Mies van der Rohe said, “God is in the details”.
IO What about stealing from others? Oscar Wilde said, “Talent borrows, genius steals”, whilst Karl Martens said he didn’t want to be influenced. What do you think?
SH We always “steal” something. Koreans are so influenced by translated culture. Like we said, we grew up watching Japanese animes but when they arrived in Korea they were not the original versions, but edited versions. Many imported things are changed and adapted. We don’t have a strong originality, and we think stealing is very important for further development and for bringing things to the next level. We want to be heavily influenced. All our experiences and inputs give us ideas for translating different things into graphic design.
IO Who do you design for? For everyone, or for the elite?
SH We don’t design for everyone, because we work with artists and creators. It is not boring at all. We prefer to work for our satisfaction and also that of our collaborators.
IO What are good qualities for graphic design? Are these qualities the guiding concept of your work?
SH The ability to understand and the ability to be sensitive to topics are good qualities in graphic design, as they are important in the translation of concept and text into visual elements. We believe that a graphic designer must be good at processing information and visual elements, as it is our job to organize content and present it on different platforms, such as in print, digitally, and in exhibitions. The principle of editing guides us through the design process.
IO Do you think graphic design can change society?
SH We don’t think graphic design can change society, but it can improve the design of society and make things function better.
IO What would you do if you were the dictator of the graphic design world?
SH What we love about Seoul is that everything is mixed. Likewise, we would say “No Standards”.
IO Have you ever lost your religion?
SH We lose our religion every time our client picks “Plan B” instead of “Plan A”.
Min Choi, South Korea, Studied communication design at Seoul National University, and earned an MFA in graphic design at Yale University. After working as researchers in design at the Jan van Eyck Academie in Maastricht, Netherlands, Min and Sulki Choi founded their own design practice as well as the publishing house Spector Press. Min currently teaches graphic design and typography at the University of Seoul. www.sulki-min.com
The Interview took place in January 2016. Ingo Offermanns IOmet with Min Choi MCin Seoul, South Korea.
Introducing the cultural context
IOMin, looking for your studio, we wandered through this exciting neighborhood and came across galleries, bars, and concept stories. Is it an inspiring context for you? Or are there other places in Seoul that you prefer?
MCWell, Sulki and I don’t live in the city for many practical reasons. We just work in the city. And we do like this neighborhood—but it’s an exception in Seoul. Changseong-dong is charming, and you can find inspiring art and design spaces like the Book Society here. Seoul in general is rather ugly and, in a lot of places, even repelling, but in their own interesting ways. It’s a city that is constantly rebuilding itself. It’s somehow hard for me to feel a stable connection with the city—but maybe that’s good for me. Maybe this somewhat ironic appreciation of the city’s brutality is what keeps me working.
IOIs Seoul or South Korea in general a good place for graphic designers?
MCSeoul has always been a dynamic place, but it’s recently become more diverse. A lot of inspiring people come here to work and experiment. You have good art spaces and a design scene, which is small but vibrant. Graphic design is not an old discipline in Korea, so you can still feel some kind of pioneering spirit. However, in Korea almost every designer is underpaid and overworked. The work conditions are probably harsher here than they are, for example, in Europe. This has to do with our economy in part, but also a lack of appreciation for graphic design. Outside the cultural world, we still have to struggle for professional respect.
IOAfter a couple of days in Seoul I have the impression that South Koreans are able to find a good balance between modern life and culture heritage—cliché or truth?
MCWell again, maybe I’m being too critical of my own culture, but in order to have that balance, you would need proper cultural heritage and traditions in the first place. It could be the modernist in me speaking, but I think that anything resembling them in our minds is basically a modern construction. For example, our writing system was invented about 400 to 500 years ago, but it wasn’t widely used until the 20th century. We had to almost reinvent the script to make it a national writing system. The same can be observed in many other parts of our “cultural heritage”. We like to believe that we have a kind of heritage to cherish—we probably need this idea of tradition for the sake of cultural identity. But honestly, most of the things we know, feel, do, and enjoy are modern inventions.
IOIs this a problem for Korean society?
MCFor me, the lack of a truly cherishable heritage is not a problem. It’s the obsession with the idea of authenticity that becomes problematic. It can become unhealthy when people start to mythologize our culture and identity. Many Korean designers from the 70s and 80s tried this with images, namely with cloud and crane motifs, and by the 90s, Korean typography was linked with a notion of “the true expression of our language”. In my opinion these are not good approaches to the challenges of modern Korean society, which, in essence, are not so different from those in any other societies, Western or Asian.
IOIs there a special Korean approach to graphic design?
MCUntil recently typical Korean graphic design didn’t really appreciate empty spaces, and it liked to mix things. I suspect people feel a bit uncomfortable with starkness or with highly rational designs. Simple-looking design solutions, however well-considered, would appear “lazy” because of the lack of ornamental elaboration. But a preference for mixing things has produced some of the most interesting works in Korea, such as Choi Jeong Hwa’s mixture of the high and the low, the precious and the vulgar.
Introducing the person
IOWhat is the most beautiful thing you’ve ever seen?
MCThat’s a good question. I think the most satisfying experience for me wasn’t something I saw, but something I heard. When I was in middle school, I first heard “Purple Rain” by Prince and the Revolution—I was shocked and overwhelmed. This might be the most beautiful thing that has happened to me.
IOWhat ideas do you find particularly fascinating at the moment?
MCI’m currently reading Franco Moretti’s book Distant Reading. It’s about approaching literature from a distance to discover larger patterns in a greater amount of works, as opposed to the (traditional) close reading, which focuses on a select few works and tries to untangle their intricacies. It’s about finding long-term tendencies and large-scale changes in topics, artifices, genres, or systems. This method can be used to compare ideas cross-culturally, looking at how comparable ideas emerge in different regions and cultures, and how principles from one culture are copied / twisted / merged / enhanced by others. I’m fascinated by this work, because I think you can apply Moretti’s method to graphic design as well. For example, we can analyze, as Moretti does with his study on “world literature”, how the Western forms of typography are negotiated with Korean contents here—how the incongruity created certain tensions, and what roles ornaments play in lessening the tensions. If we could collect enough data and develop efficient tools for analysis (Moretti relies on sophisticated computational methods and a huge database), then it would be interesting to compare situations in different cultures.
IOYou studied at Yale University and you did research at the Jan van Eyck Academie. Why did you chose these places?
MCIn the 90s, I saw a lot of interesting things coming from the U.S., initially from California (Emigre Graphics) and Michigan (Cranbrook Academy of Art). When I actually started planning to study abroad in the late 90’s, Yale seemed to be a more interesting option because of the European influences there. Some of the best teachers at Yale were from the Netherlands or had a connection with the country’s design culture. A few of them recommended that Sulki and I continue our research at the Jan van Eyck Academie, a highly open and experimental place. I don’t know if we really continued our research per se, but we did manage to take the first steps towards our independent practice.
IOWhat other design or artistic disciplines are important for you?
MCMusic, primarily contemporary pop music. But I’m not a collector and not exactly a fan either—I don’t subscribe to particular genres or artists. I’m more of a flâneur, which is all too easy to be these days. Both Sulki and I also watch a lot of movies, not just art-house films, but more Hollywood blockbusters and American TV shows. We often find inspiration from art exhibitions and performances, but the inspiration can be too direct, or not direct enough to instigate resistance, as is the case with other graphic designers’ work.
Working life
IOCould you describe your typical workday?
MCMy workdays are very different day by day. Some days I teach, other days I meet clients, go to meetings, or take care of our publishing projects. And sometimes I do need to spend my entire day on designing. I guess my ride to my studio or school in the morning and back at night is something that comes closest to a daily routine. I enjoy the state of being alone in the car, focused and on the move all at the same time.
IOWhy do you think clients pick you as a designer?
MCI only work with a handful of clients. They’re friends essentially, so we have a relationship of trust. Beyond this, I think we are quite reliable in terns of meeting requirements or delivering results. And we handle texts with care. I’d like to think that we are an editorial companion for publishers. We also really enjoy compromises, because they can lead us to inspiring detours and some surprising results.
IOHow does your idea finding process work?
MCI usually get my best ideas while doing something else, like driving, changing diapers, or cleaning the house. Though, I really believe that the solution lies in the problem. Reading the assignment closely generates the first good ideas. This may sound cliché to Dutch or German designers, but it has a different implication here, because not many Korean clients are familiar with well-stated briefs. Even government officials, who in most settings would produce very formal briefs, often don’t really believe in them. In Korea briefs tend to be an open starting point. Actual insights might instead be gained while talking to each other on the phone or over dinner. But we prefer a more distant, formal way of communication, so we sometimes interpret briefs very literally, despite knowing that it can lead to misunderstandings. I think it’s OK to start from a misunderstanding.
IOWhat are the most enthusiastic and the most annoying moments in the design process for you?
MCI really like the production process, when the rough material is shaping itself into something beautiful. Also, typesetting is very rewarding for me. Misprints and incorrect binding are irritating, but at the end of the day, part of the game. Doing presentations can be annoying, especially in front of bureaucrats or politicians, because you have to spend a lot of time translating your thoughts into a language that you don’t like.
IOWho do you get your feedback from?
MCAs a graphic designer, you don’t really get many formal or measurable feedbacks. You deliver the design, and it gets produced when the client likes it. And that’s it most of the time. Sulki is my most important critic—that’s why we work together. But the design studio downstairs (Workroom) and the people around this neighborhood sometimes also offer feedback. This happens naturally because we get together quite often.
Attitude
IOWho do you design for, for connoisseurs or for everyone?
MCHonestly, for connoisseurs. Just look at the books we design. Most of them have a print run of about 1,500 copies. In the end maybe a 1,000 copies are sold and half of them are actually read—that’s a very small group. I think you need to know a little about graphic design to really appreciate our work. Not that others are repelled by our design, but the effort that we put into our work will probably be noticed by a more knowledgeable public. But you are ultimately always designing for a peer group; this automatically excludes others, even if you are supposed to design for a broader audience.
IOWhat are the qualities of a good graphic designer in your opinion?
MCTo be critical, to be inventive, and to be communicative. When I teach, my emphasis is placed on general design intelligence. I also make students aware of the nuances of typography for example, because these are the tools they might work with, but I make them even more aware of the need to develop an attitude of looking at problems from uncommon perspectives.
IOWhat are the key guiding concepts for your work?
MCWe sometimes state: Clarifying is our business and obscuring is our pleasure. With any given project, you have a mixture of clarity and obscurity—the clarity of principles as opposed to the obscurity of meaning, or the other way around. And we always try to find a risky and inspiring balance, because with this tension you create attention to the content.
IOCan graphic design change society?
MCI think that the question itself is problematic, because it implies that graphic design is not a part of society. The question doesn’t acknowledge that graphic design is already a part of society, and any changes within graphic design could be a change in society too. If you think of social change only as ecological or political awareness campaigns, you are missing the point. Small changes in newspaper typeface, for example, can reflect social dynamics—this is social interaction.